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Thread: Masad Ayoob Weighs in On Zimmerman Case

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    XCR Guru Sean K.'s Avatar
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    Masad Ayoob Weighs in On Zimmerman Case




    The Captain's Journal » Noted Self Defense Expert Weighs In On Zimmerman


    Noted Self Defense Expert Weighs In On Zimmerman


    I misspelled Massad's name in the title....apologies.



    BY Herschel Smith
    10 hours, 6 minutes ago Before we deal with the observations of a well-respected self defense expert on George Zimmerman and his case, allow me to make a few observations.
    I think that I would have done things differently than Zimmerman. First of all, I try not to be out like that without my dog, who is an 82 pound Doberman named Heidi. She is a significant degree of protection. Second, if you own the light, you own the night. I wouldn’t have been out without a good tactical light. So I usually carry my Surefire light with me at night if I’m out, even if I’m walking my dog in the neighborhood. Finally, my three e‘s are egress, evasion and escape. If I had been there that fateful night and was close enough to have been jumped by someone, I would consider my tactics to have been faulty.
    But in the end, it isn’t against the law to walk at night without a tactical light, without a dog, and without a plan for egress, evasion and escape. And it’s also not against the law to carry a weapon, and I do that as well. I said earlier that I think I would have done things differently than Mr. Zimmerman. Suppose that I didn’t have a tactical light or an 82 pound Doberman. And suppose further that I was responsible for my neighborhood watch, having seen my neighborhood ransacked by hoodlums, pilfered by gangsters and terrorized by criminals. And suppose that there was no one else that night, knowing that the police are an irrelevant feature to the security of my neighborhood. Unless we are in Zimmerman’s shoes in that exact situation, it’s easy to say what we would or wouldn’t have done, but much harder to have any confidence in our claims.
    So with that setup, let’s turn to Massad Ayoob (via Say Uncle), who tells us here why he has been silent on the Zimmerman case. Mr. Ayoob’s entire article is highly recommended, but some of his thoughts are repeated here.
    If I’m your criminal attacker, you don’t have to wait for me to shoot you before you can shoot me to defend your life, and you don’t even need to wait until the gun is in my hand. If I announce my intent to murder you and reach for a gun, I’m bought and paid for right there. And it doesn’t matter whether the gun I’m reaching for is in my holster, or yours. That’s why every year in America, when thugs try to grab a policeman’s gun and are shot, the shootings are ruled justifiable.
    Even before Martin’s reach for Zimmerman’s still-holstered pistol, the circumstances that were proven to the satisfaction of the jury showed that Zimmerman was justified in shooting his attacker. Remember when defense attorney Don West said in the defense’s opening statement that Martin was armed with the sidewalk? That sounded ludicrous to lay people, and I would have phrased it differently myself, but professionals understood exactly what he was talking about.
    The operative principle at law is called “disparity of force.” It means that while your opponent(s) may not be armed with a deadly weapon per se, their physical advantage over you is so great that if their ostensibly unarmed assault continues, you are likely to die or suffer grave bodily harm. That disparity of force may take the form of a much larger and stronger assailant, a male attacking a female, force of numbers, able-bodied attacking the handicapped, skilled fighter attacking the unskilled, or – in this case – position of disadvantage.
    Position of disadvantage means that the opponent has full range and freedom of movement, and you don’t. You’re seat-belted behind your steering wheel while he rains punches onto your skull through the open window…or you are down and helpless in a martial arts “mount” while your opponent pounds you at will.
    Finally, we have the clearly proven element of Martin smashing Zimmerman’s head into the sidewalk. If I picked up a chunk of concrete or cement and tried to smash your skull with it, you would certainly realize that you were about to die or be horribly brain-damaged if you didn’t stop me. It would be what the statutes call “a deadly weapon, to wit a bludgeon.” There just isn’t a whole hell of a lot of difference between cement being smashed into head, and head being smashed into cement.
    Clearly, Trayvon Martin possessed the power to kill or cripple Zimmerman. That is why, under law, Zimmerman was justified in defending himself with a per se deadly weapon.
    Bob Owens has similar observations. When Mr. Martin jumped Mr. Zimmerman and began to beat him, the night could have only ended with one of them dead or crippled and possibly permanently disabled. The gun saved Zimmerman’s life, and that’s why he carried it. It performed the function for which it was designed, and while all of us who carry weapons hope that we never have to put it to such use, if we are ever faced with that situation we have what we need to reverse that “disparity of force.”
    Last edited by Sean K.; 07-19-2013 at 09:20 AM.
    "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human liberty. It is the argument of tyrants; the creed of slaves."-William Pitt the Younger

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    XCR Guru EricCartmann's Avatar
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    Paying for gun training is lame.
    "Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws." - Plato (427-347 B.C.)

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    XCR Guru TomAiello's Avatar
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    Good training is a far more worthwhile investment than equipment.
    - Tom Aiello
    tbaiello@mac.com

    ...I don't care, I'm still free, you can't take the sky from me...

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    Expert navalbeaver's Avatar
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    Doesn't look as cool though...

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    XCR Guru EricCartmann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomAiello View Post
    Good training is a far more worthwhile investment than equipment.
    paying for training is lame
    "Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws." - Plato (427-347 B.C.)

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    XCR Guru Bravo's Avatar
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    As my old mentor used to say, owning a piano makes you a concert pianist in the same way that owning a pistol makes you a pistolero.
    At least that's my paraphrase.
    And just like you'll never hear someone play at Van Cliburn that hasn't had intense piano lessons, you'll never see someone running a weapon at maximum capability without having some intense instruction.
    But Nate is right. Hard to talk people into investing in training when something new in the safe is much more....... visible.
    Do you really think we want laws to be observed? We want them broken. There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. When there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be crimes that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants law-abiding citizens? Pass the kind of laws that can’t be observed, enforced, or objectively interpreted - and you create a nation of law-breakers.

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    Marksman Loonster's Avatar
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    If Zimmerman had better training Martin would likely be alive today.

    (Why wait until your head is being bashed into sidewalk to use a firearm? IMO, a firearm is best used as a deterrent. Pull up your shirt and place your hand on the weapon to show you're packing. If that doesn't work, pull it out and hold it by yourside. If that still isn't enough, aim. The next step is shoot to kill.)
    “If a tyrant is one man and his subjects are many, why do they consent to their own enslavement?"

    Etienne de La Boetie (1530-1563)

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    XCR Guru EricCartmann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bravo View Post
    As my old mentor used to say, owning a piano makes you a concert pianist in the same way that owning a pistol makes you a pistolero.
    At least that's my paraphrase.
    And just like you'll never hear someone play at Van Cliburn that hasn't had intense piano lessons, you'll never see someone running a weapon at maximum capability without having some intense instruction.
    But Nate is right. Hard to talk people into investing in training when something new in the safe is much more....... visible.

    that's fine and dandy if you think operating a pistol is the same as operating a piano
    "Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws." - Plato (427-347 B.C.)

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    XCR Guru EricCartmann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loonster View Post
    If Zimmerman had better training Martin would likely be alive today.

    (Why wait until your head is being bashed into sidewalk to use a firearm? IMO, a firearm is best used as a deterrent. Pull up your shirt and place your hand on the weapon to show you're packing. If that doesn't work, pull it out and hold it by yourside. If that still isn't enough, aim. The next step is shoot to kill.)

    If he had the Cartmann training, Zimmerman would not be in as nearly as much hot water.
    "Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws." - Plato (427-347 B.C.)

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    XCR Guru EricCartmann's Avatar
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    I have met plenty of gun guys in my life. All these guys took all these lame training classes. Most of them do not know what they are doing.

    I know how to rapid fire a pistol. I know how to fire while moving. I know how to shoot long distance and have my .308 drop table memorize, as well as my ranging a man from 1-1000 yards with both mildot and MOA reticle just from memory.

    All guns take is practice. You can discuss technique for free. You can even see techniques on youtube for free, and then from here you can find out what works for you, and practice practice practice.

    I also know how to build AR's, how to fix guns, and just about all aspects of Reloading. My friends often ask me how the hell do I know all this. I just tell them, guns are a hobby to me. Also I am just hella smart can figure stuff out.
    "Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws." - Plato (427-347 B.C.)

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