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Thread: Stay away from C Products Defense , LLC

  1. #11
    XCR Guru Sean K.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by devon.mickle View Post
    I've never had problems extracting. It's a feed issue. Rounds are not rising up sufficiently in mag after a round has been stripped. I'm sure it would work if I lubed the rounds before putting them in the mag, but I'm not wiling to go there. While this happens with both my ASC mags and C Products mags, my purpose of posting was to warn folks to stay away from c-products defense. They throw around a "lifetime warranty" yet shipped and charged me for damaged merchandise and refuse to respond to any communication about honoring their warranty. Consider yourself warned; their 30rd 7.62x39mm mag looks promising, but if you're not shooting brass (and who is now that all the surplus is gone) you will be disappointed.
    Lubing the rounds won't help.

    Since you are only having feed problems, you're correct that it's most likely the mags. Have you tried upgrading the springs to Wolff AK springs as some others here have done (unfortunately, at your own expense since CProducts doesn't seem to be honoring their warranty)? I don't know specifics, but others here have used those springs with success. Might also mic your feed lip size on the ASC mags that do work and mimic those results on the CProducts....could be they are spread....wouldn't be the first time CProducts let mags go that were not in spec.
    "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human liberty. It is the argument of tyrants; the creed of slaves."-William Pitt the Younger

  2. #12
    Newbie kree's Avatar
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    I don't understand how the rounds would benefit from a stiffer spring. Is the issue here the fact that steel ammo has a lacquer coating on the casing? The lacquer (through thermoplastic reactivity) can soften and/or partially melt and cause problems. I work with lacquer every day, so my question is purely speculation and based on non ammunition experience. In other words, it's a guess... Just wondering
    Kree

  3. #13
    XCR Guru Sean K.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kree View Post
    I don't understand how the rounds would benefit from a stiffer spring. Is the issue here the fact that steel ammo has a lacquer coating on the casing? The lacquer (through thermoplastic reactivity) can soften and/or partially melt and cause problems. I work with lacquer every day, so my question is purely speculation and based on non ammunition experience. In other words, it's a guess... Just wondering
    Kree
    He's having feeding issues....that is a mag problem, generally. The problem is that the round is not coming up fast enough as the bolt travels rearward to be chambered as the bolt comes forward again.

    As for lacquer melting on casings....you can put a lighter under a spent case and it doesn't become sticky or melt. It's a myth.
    "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human liberty. It is the argument of tyrants; the creed of slaves."-William Pitt the Younger

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  5. #14
    Marksman davek's Avatar
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    I don't understand why the stiffer spring works either. The ones that came with the mags seemed fine. But, I put the Wolff springs in and all problems went away. I quit trying to understand and just enjoyed it.

  6. #15
    XCR Guru mjorin's Avatar
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    All of the wolf steel cased ammo is polymer coated, I don't believe they use lacquer. Just as Sean said, a stiffer spring pushes the round up quicker, semi-auto are all about timing. If the bolt gets there before the next round is all the way in place, it jams.

  7. #16
    Newbie devon.mickle's Avatar
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    I have not tried Wolff mag springs specifically but that's basically my last option. I've heard that others have had success with them, so I'll give it a shot when ammo is available again. When I ordered the C-Products Defense mags from Larry back in the Fall, he told me that their newest generation of 7.62x39mm mag uses stronger springs to address the issue. In my case, it did not (at least in the mag he sent me that wasn't already damaged).
    As to the specs of the mags, I have never measured the feed lips so I'll take a look at that, but my ASC mags have been just as unreliable in steel cased as my C-Products Defense mags.
    I wish there was still brass 7.62x39 surplus ammo out there. My XCR ran amazing back then.

  8. #17
    XCR Guru Sean K.'s Avatar
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    Okay, wait.....

    The problem you're having exists with EITHER ASC or CProducts mags and the only variable is the steel cases?

    Are you sure it's not a timing issue from the relatively lower powder charge in the steel cased ammo? Under powered ammo can cause the carrier to short stroke....the bolt won't go back far enough to pick up the next round. Could well be the problem is that the gun is undergassed, not that the ammo isn't being fed fast enough by the mags.

    If that's the case....do the upper test (flip it over after taking it off the lower, pull the bolt/carrier out of the upper by the op rod assembly and check for any drag.....if the op rod/spring comes out of the carrier before the bolt/carrier....it is likely that the op rod foot was welded on crooked and the extra resistance is causing drag in the system which could be the cause of the short stroking).

    If that's not it....then check your port sizes in both the bbl, dial and gas block.....check all the way through the holes as some are pilot drilled and may have the right size hole on the entrance but not go all the way through to the other side, leaving a step in the hole and a restriction.
    "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human liberty. It is the argument of tyrants; the creed of slaves."-William Pitt the Younger

  9. #18
    Newbie sheldonbotha's Avatar
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    Yeah I'll tell everyone here and now this is a all to common issue with these mags, I have 1 ASC 7.62x39 that came with my XCR-L, I then purchased another 9.
    Finally go out the the range and what do you know, exact issue this guy is having.
    Can not get through to ASC, no email replys, I call (they will call back but never do).
    The follower rides really hard in that magazine, its firstly way over tight, so I sanded the followers just to smooth any rough edges....didnt do to much, the follower still either jams down low if I had over say 6 rounds in it, and if it gets up top, you have the round tip bottoming out and hitting the front lip as it is attempting to exit.

    Step2, I took all the mags apart, I then took a hammer to the back ridge (lightly but firmly) along the length of the magazine, this helped a great deal as the poor follower can actually move in the magazine without getting stuck down below when loaded, I also dry lubed the inside of the mags with "Pyroil Silicone Lubricant".

    I have Wolff springs on order as the youtube videos I have seen clearly show the ASC springs are a good 6" shorter than the real AK mag springs.
    Also the real mags dont have that bottom lip up so high, and the ASC mags have these "dimples" on the lips for some or other reason.
    It looks like these guys are making AK based magazines without actually looking at a system that has been around for a long time and works just fine.

    So once my Wollf springs arrive, I'll dump them in and then file down the front lip one by one.

    Over all I love the XCR (I have the L and M) but am beyond disappointed with these mags, I would not trust my life to this rifle because the only options I can really find are magazines that I have really no trust in at present.
    It makes it worse when you call the company and get told "we will call you back" and never do when you want to try and point out the issues you have seen, and discuss the fixes you have done which have helped the problem slowly resolve itself.

    Anyhow, here is hoping for a good reliable outcome on these, until someone with higher QC starts making something we can use....otherwise I may have to switch the XCR to some other caliber like 223 or 6.8 just due to the fact that I can get good magazines.

    Update: the springs just arrived, I've attached a photo I just took of the asc springs vs the Wolff springs, nuff said.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Stay away from C Products Defense , LLC-img_20130417_182204.jpg  
    Last edited by sheldonbotha; 04-17-2013 at 06:30 PM.

  10. #19
    Newbie sheldonbotha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by devon.mickle View Post
    I have not tried Wolff mag springs specifically but that's basically my last option. I've heard that others have had success with them, so I'll give it a shot when ammo is available again. When I ordered the C-Products Defense mags from Larry back in the Fall, he told me that their newest generation of 7.62x39mm mag uses stronger springs to address the issue. In my case, it did not (at least in the mag he sent me that wasn't already damaged).
    As to the specs of the mags, I have never measured the feed lips so I'll take a look at that, but my ASC mags have been just as unreliable in steel cased as my C-Products Defense mags.
    I wish there was still brass 7.62x39 surplus ammo out there. My XCR ran amazing back then.
    Hi, I got the Wolff springs in a mag yesterday, I only cycled the rounds by hand to see what happens but I still got jamss now and then because of that high lip up front. (these things are really becoming a pain in my ass)
    So out came the dremel tool, I ground off around just under 1mm of metal on that front lip, I actually took out the 7.62x51mm PMAGS and looked around online at pictures of the front end of real AK mags to see the type of clearance the front of the round has to guesstimate how much grinding down to do.

    Okay so now I have the new springs (and I've hammered the back of the ridge all the way so I have no issues with the follower sticking anymore) and I now have an extra +- 1mm of clearance on the front so that the rounds will not catch that lip and jam.

    Hand cycled 120 rounds worth....not one jam so far.

    I will see what really happens out at the range.

    A very expensive exercise with these if you ask me, my hatred currently for these magazines is at a very high point.

  11. #20
    XCR Guru Sean K.'s Avatar
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    Yep...that's what kept me from buying a X39 in an XCR. I got lucky though and got 20 of the ASC mags that work (not to rub it in your face....just to say that at some point they had them working correctly...sounds like the rush to produce mags after Newtown has let quality slip drastically).


    Good luck with it. You could always buy a 5.56 or 6.8 and sell the X39 (personally, I like the cost and power of the X39).
    "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human liberty. It is the argument of tyrants; the creed of slaves."-William Pitt the Younger

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