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  1. #111
    XCR Guru Bravo's Avatar
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    This is VERY true.
    But there's a big difference between hitting a pop-up on a mowed range (contrasting target) at 300 and hitting a camo'ed steel target in woodlines at 800 with a 3X or 4X optic.
    Do you really think we want laws to be observed? We want them broken. There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. When there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be crimes that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants law-abiding citizens? Pass the kind of laws that canít be observed, enforced, or objectively interpreted - and you create a nation of law-breakers.

  2. #112
    Banned EricCartmann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bravo View Post
    This is VERY true.
    But there's a big difference between hitting a pop-up on a mowed range (contrasting target) at 300 and hitting a camo'ed steel target in woodlines at 800 with a 3X or 4X optic.
    actually lawns were not mowed... but there were big dirt mounds indicating where the pop ups were going to pop up. Easy but not that easy because you had no idea where they were going to pop up... and if it is at 300, you had less than 4 seconds to get on site and fire.

    If something is well camo, even a 4x optic at 300 yards will not help.

  3. #113
    XCR Guru Bravo's Avatar
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    Ok, I'll buy that.
    The last military range I shot pop-ups on had them in holes (protected the activation mechanism), so they kept the grass mowed down.
    They were those goofy plastic 3-D half torsos that required 2 hits within 2 seconds to go down, but I don't know how long they'd stay up. Never timed it.

    I ought to clarify - when I said well camo'ed, I meant spray painted in colors that blend in to the terrain. Not really camo'ed, nothing to break up the outline per-se. Not like they had ghillie suits on ;-)
    If they were really camo'ed like that, you more than likely wouldn't see them with any optic at less than 200 yards.
    I say that because I got off my 2 shots (Canadian crimp blanks) at about 140 yards, and a dozen guys with spotting scopes and binos couldn't see me.
    I lost the first casing in the fun, but the second was a "trophy" and sits on my desk hutch now.
    Do you really think we want laws to be observed? We want them broken. There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. When there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be crimes that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants law-abiding citizens? Pass the kind of laws that canít be observed, enforced, or objectively interpreted - and you create a nation of law-breakers.

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  5. #114
    Banned EricCartmann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bravo View Post
    Ok, I'll buy that.
    The last military range I shot pop-ups on had them in holes (protected the activation mechanism), so they kept the grass mowed down.
    They were those goofy plastic 3-D half torsos that required 2 hits within 2 seconds to go down, but I don't know how long they'd stay up. Never timed it.

    I ought to clarify - when I said well camo'ed, I meant spray painted in colors that blend in to the terrain. Not really camo'ed, nothing to break up the outline per-se. Not like they had ghillie suits on ;-)
    If they were really camo'ed like that, you more than likely wouldn't see them with any optic at less than 200 yards.
    I say that because I got off my 2 shots (Canadian crimp blanks) at about 140 yards, and a dozen guys with spotting scopes and binos couldn't see me.
    I lost the first casing in the fun, but the second was a "trophy" and sits on my desk hutch now.
    Well do not blame yourself, you are old and blind, and can barely speak, so you always have to clarify. Ericc understands.. Ericc has a big heart.

  6. #115
    XCR Guru Bravo's Avatar
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    I have to clarify because it seems I'm always talking about what's in the center of the envelope, while you seem to like debating the boundaries of the envelope.
    Do you really think we want laws to be observed? We want them broken. There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. When there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be crimes that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants law-abiding citizens? Pass the kind of laws that canít be observed, enforced, or objectively interpreted - and you create a nation of law-breakers.

  7. #116
    XCR Guru Sean K.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EricCartmann View Post
    Well do not blame yourself, you are old and blind, and can barely speak, so you always have to clarify. Ericc understands.. Ericc has a big heart.
    And a tiny dick....at least that's what his mom and girlfriends all told me.
    mjorin likes this.
    "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human liberty. It is the argument of tyrants; the creed of slaves."-William Pitt the Younger

  8. #117
    XCR Guru Bravo's Avatar
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    And you get the award of "first laugh out loud of the day" ;-)
    Sean K. and mjorin like this.
    Do you really think we want laws to be observed? We want them broken. There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. When there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be crimes that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants law-abiding citizens? Pass the kind of laws that canít be observed, enforced, or objectively interpreted - and you create a nation of law-breakers.

  9. #118
    CB3
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    Re: Camo'd targets at short ranges.

    I have had the opportunity to put a sneak on three different groups of people and fire two .308 blanks over their heads.

    Groups one and two had about 7 members each, and the sneak was during a target ID and ranging exercise. Each participant had binos. They were glassing targets on a hillside above the range placed at from 150-300 yards, like a backpack, a helmet, a radio antenna, etc. They were told I would be sneaking up on them from roughly the same direction as where the targets were. There was pretty consistent and heavy cover most of the way. They were told I would fire two shots from the same position. I covered two hundred yards on my sneak in about 15 minutes. Neither the two instructors nor the participants ever saw me. I had clear shots from about 110 yards.

    The third group was slightly more interesting. It consisted of 23 members of the National Guard on a training exercise. They were doing the same target ID exercise, under similar conditions. They were on top of the 400 yard shooting berm on a 600 yard range. There was open space for about 100 yards off to their left before looking up the hill to the targets. On that sneak I got to about 140 yards but could get no closer in the allotted time. Fired twice. Again, not one instructor or participant could see me.

    Prone, Ghillie of sorts, camo'd gun (see my avatar). This is different than shooting pop ups or movers, I understand, but target ID on somewhat camo'd and hidden targets, and shooting them, is a lot harder than many imagine.

  10. #119
    XCR Guru Bravo's Avatar
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    Bingo!

    I did it in my DCUs and boonie with a stainless steel barreled rifle ;-)

    Stalking people isn't always that difficult. Now stalking turkeys, those are difficult!
    Do you really think we want laws to be observed? We want them broken. There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. When there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be crimes that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants law-abiding citizens? Pass the kind of laws that canít be observed, enforced, or objectively interpreted - and you create a nation of law-breakers.

  11. #120
    Banned EricCartmann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean K. View Post
    And a tiny dick....at least that's what his mom and girlfriends all told me.
    Right on cue!

    Haterz gonna hate? What came we do?

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