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Thread: Confused About 308 & 7.62 x 51mm

  1. #11
    Newbie Rhubarb33's Avatar
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    Chevy: What brand of NATO ammo are you getting (berdan or boxer primer?). And where are you purchasing it?

  2. #12
    Newbie chevyxcr's Avatar
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    The ammo is Norinco 7.62 x 51 M80 Nato Ball , Berdan-Primed , Bimetal Copper/steel cased non corrosive and its on for a boxed case for $399.00 @ 1000 rds. If you are in canada I buy it from canada ammo.com and its free shipping anywhere in canada.. I just ordered another case from them yesterday... Never can have to much lol...specially at that price. Check them out ! Good people to deal with and good prices on guns to and combo packs guns and ammo together..

  3. #13
    Banned EricCartmann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chevyxcr View Post
    The ammo is Norinco 7.62 x 51 M80 Nato Ball , Berdan-Primed , Bimetal Copper/steel cased non corrosive and its on for a boxed case for $399.00 @ 1000 rds. If you are in canada I buy it from canada ammo.com and its free shipping anywhere in canada.. I just ordered another case from them yesterday... Never can have to much lol...specially at that price. Check them out ! Good people to deal with and good prices on guns to and combo packs guns and ammo together..
    Oh man I did not realize it was it was steel case and bimetal bullets. I would not consider that M80, but then again, anything 147 gr that goes about 2800 fps is probably considered M80 ammo. However, at .40 cents a round, that is still a great price!

    Keep in mind, bimetal bullets wear barrels much faster than copper bullets. However, barrels are relatively cheap compared to the cost of ammo.

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  5. #14
    Newbie chevyxcr's Avatar
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    Well yes it is cheaper to replace the barrel at 500.00 after 10.000 to 12.000 thousand rounds than pay the extra $4000 for american eagle copper .308 win.. so you would actualy save $3500.00 . In the long run. But then again thats the ammo the army was using in the machine guns for years and i don,t think they were replacing barrels every 10.000 rounds .. If its good enough for them to use its good enough for me..lol....

  6. #15
    Banned EricCartmann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chevyxcr View Post
    Well yes it is cheaper to replace the barrel at 500.00 after 10.000 to 12.000 thousand rounds than pay the extra $4000 for american eagle copper .308 win.. so you would actualy save $3500.00 . In the long run. But then again thats the ammo the army was using in the machine guns for years and i don,t think they were replacing barrels every 10.000 rounds .. If its good enough for them to use its good enough for me..lol....
    That's not the same ammo the US Army was using, and I doubt the Chinese uses 7.62x51 NATO ammo. However, almost all Eastern Bloc countries issues ammo with bimetal bullets, so there is really nothing wrong with bimetal bullets as far as reliability goes, but they do wear barrels much faster.

    There was an excellent long term test done with Wolf and Amerian Eagle awhile back that proved Wolf totally shot out AR barrels at 5000 rounds, while the AR barrels that saw American Eagle barely showed any wear and groups were still very respectable at 5k rounds (within 5 MOA, but remember Wolf itself is about 3 MOA out of the box). I have read many incidents on the FALfiles on how Bimetal bullets shot out FAL barrels after only about 3k rounds.

  7. #16
    XCR Guru Sean K.'s Avatar
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    Again Eric, that was one test and it was done rapid fire. I'm not certain how valid the test would be if one didn't heat the bbl up with very rapid fire over the duration of the test. I'm definitely not saying you're wrong, but the wear rates of just about any steel (even a 4140 chromoly bbl) is going to go up exponentially as you build up heat. Granted, the increased friction of bi-metal projectiles will generate more heat than pure copper....but the question is how much and how can you prove it or provide real numbers empirically.

    *EDIT* Also, you're most likely talking about wear of the chrome lining....a nitrided bbl may last far longer since the surface hardening processes and qualities are quite different (considering nitride is supposed to have 3-4X the wear resistance).
    Last edited by Sean K.; 06-04-2013 at 11:11 AM.
    "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human liberty. It is the argument of tyrants; the creed of slaves."-William Pitt the Younger

  8. #17
    Banned EricCartmann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean K. View Post
    Again Eric, that was one test and it was done rapid fire. I'm not certain how valid the test would be if one didn't heat the bbl up with very rapid fire over the duration of the test. I'm definitely not saying you're wrong, but the wear rates of just about any steel (even a 4140 chromoly bbl) is going to go up exponentially as you build up heat. Granted, the increased friction of bi-metal projectiles will generate more heat than pure copper....but the question is how much and how can you prove it or provide real numbers empirically.

    *EDIT* Also, you're most likely talking about wear of the chrome lining....a nitrided bbl may last far longer since the surface hardening processes and qualities are quite different (considering nitride is supposed to have 3-4X the wear resistance).

    All guns were shot with the same rate of fire. Therefore, I think it has less to do with heat, and more to do with hardness of the bimetal material not forming to the barrel as easily. Remember the bullet is bigger than the barrel, and you want the jacket of the bullet (as well as the lead bullet itself) to be soft so it squeezes easier. If it is harder to squeeze through, then the barrel will wear faster (Regardless of Barrel Material!).

  9. #18
    XCR Guru Sean K.'s Avatar
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    Agreed...but the rate of wear HAS to be affected by the surface temp of the metal. The first law is about heat and work. You can't completely isolate one from the other in this case. You'd have to do a fair bit more testing and scientific study to determine how much the wear rate was affected by the extra heat generated by rapid fire.
    "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human liberty. It is the argument of tyrants; the creed of slaves."-William Pitt the Younger

  10. #19
    Banned EricCartmann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean K. View Post
    Agreed...but the rate of wear HAS to be affected by the surface temp of the metal. The first law is about heat and work. You can't completely isolate one from the other in this case. You'd have to do a fair bit more testing and scientific study to determine how much the wear rate was affected by the extra heat generated by rapid fire.

    Heat is always an enemy of any machines (not just guns). I am also convinced that the bimetal bullet also causes more heat build up in the barrel because or more friction.

    Rapid fire does play a bigger part, and I am sure if you slow down the rate of fire, the barrel will not wear as fast when shooting bimetal bullets.

    It's not just this ONE report that expressed increased wear. Even before that testing, there are many guys on FALfiles that says their FALs are wearing exponentially faster with bimetal bullets, and that they can see a noticeable difference in group size only after 2,000 rounds.

    No matter how you look at it (rapid or slow), copper bullet saves barrel life. "Ole Dirty", the Texas Legend (the name of an individual FAL) has seen 16,000+ rounds without a clean, and group sizes are still very respectable for a combat gun. Ole Dirty has never seen bimetal bullets though, he has only shot surplus ammo with copper bullets.

    There is really no real scientific test needed to confirm stuff I already know. That is that bimetal bullets puts greater stress on barrel, and will cause barrel to wear 100-200% faster.

    But none of this really matters, because the cost of .308 ammo is so high these days ($1 per round for surplus rounds), the cost of the barrel is really insignificant to to the cost of the ammo.

  11. #20
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    I herd its all the same my ammo case says 7.62x51(.308) right on it

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