Assault rifle or battle rifle?
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Thread: Assault rifle or battle rifle?

  1. #1
    XCR Guru dont_tread_on_me's Avatar
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    Assault rifle or battle rifle?

    Ok this is a continuation of the discussion we were having in the "XCR > Everything else" thread.During the course of discussion of the original topic we pretty much got sidetracked and out of respect for Variablebinary I decided to try to move that discussion here.
    Now if you want to go to the original discussion to catch up here's the link https://xcrforum.com/index.php/topic,2565.50.html
    Ok Stanc,I'm not going to debate wether the XCR qualifies as a semiautomatic assault rifle,as it's fruitless.There are certainly select fire versions of the XCR.Here's what you said.
    I was imprecise in my wording. I'll try again. The vast majority of "Sport Utility Rifles" are variants of select-fire military weapons, the design of which was modified to be semi-auto only. They were not designed from scratch and "styled" to resemble military weapons. The manufacturers began with the select-fire military rifle and made some relatively minor changes to the receiver and a small percentage of internal components to satisfy ATF requirements. In all other respects they are identical to the military weapons from which they were derived.
    I could be wrong but I don't believe the XCR is a variant of the select fire version.I think the semiautomatic version was designed first,then the select fire came later.In other words,the XCR was designed as a semiauto,then a select fire version was designed.Personally I think that's splitting hairs and makes hardly any difference either way.I still consider the XCR a semiautomatic assault rifle.
    As far a the classification battle rifle or main battle rifle,I'm not sure when the term was coined,but in my opinion rifles that fire full size cartridges are NOT assault rifles.I really don't care what some experts say.I don't think you can lump them together on the fact that battle rifles and assault rifles are both select fire.The whole assault rifle concept was based on using a less powerfull cartridge for more contollability in full auto,and to be able to carry more ammunition in a combat loadout.
    Some people consider the AKSU-74 a submachine gun.While clearly it fires an assault rifle cartridge.In my understanding a submachine gun fires pistol caliber catridge.Therefore I don't understand why simply based on size it's classified by some as such.I'm no expert,but it makes no sense to me.



    War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks nothing worth a war, is worse.... A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares more about than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.----John Stuart Mill

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    Re: Assault rifle or battle rifle?

    Quote Originally Posted by dont_tread_on_me View Post
    I could be wrong but I don't believe the XCR is a variant of the select fire version.I think the semiautomatic version was designed first,then the select fire came later.Personally I think that's splitting hairs and makes hardly any difference either way.I still consider the XCR a semiautomatic assault rifle.
    Okay.
    As far a the classification battle rifle or main battle rifle,I'm not sure when the term was coined,but in my opinion rifles that fire full size cartridges are NOT assault rifles.
    As I wrote in the other thread, I also prefer to distinguish between assault rifles that fire intermediate-power cartridges and battle rifles that use full-power rounds.

    I might be misremembering, but I think the "battle rifle" term has been used by civilian authors for little more than two decades. I used to have a special issue magazine that Chuck Taylor put out when he was editor of SWAT in the 1980s, in which he had separate chapters for assault rifles and battle rifles. I don't recall any writers using "battle rifle" back in the 1960s, though, the time period when The World's Assault Rifles was published. And, as I noted, the military didn't use "battle rifle" until this decade.

    I have no idea who came up with "main battle rifle," but suspect it was some civilian with no military experience who heard of main battle tanks and decided it'd sound cool to copy the phrase.
    Some people consider the AKSU-74 a submachine gun.While clearly it fires an assault rifle cartridge.In my understanding a submachine gun fires pistol caliber catridge.Therefore I don't understand why simply based on size it's classified by some as such.I'm no expert,but it makes no sense to me.
    La France Specialties called their 8" barreled M16K a "high-power submachine gun." The reasoning, as I understand it, that some individuals refer to weapons like the AKSU as SMGs is not solely the size, but primarily because such short-barreled assault rifles are intended for the same missions/roles as true (pistol-caliber) SMGs. For instance, the 5.56mm M16K was marketed as an alternative to the 9mm MP5.

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    Re: Assault rifle or battle rifle?

    La France Specialties called their 8" barreled M16K a "high-power submachine gun." The reasoning, as I understand it, that some individuals refer to weapons like the AKSU as SMGs is not solely the size, but primarily because such short-barreled assault rifles are intended for the same missions/roles as true (pistol-caliber) SMGs. For instance, the 5.56mm M16K was marketed as an alternative to the 9mm MP5
    I can understand the idea of what you refer to in that the two weapon systems would fulfill the same role.However I don't see how it justifies classifying it as the same thing just because they can be used for the same purpose.It's kind of like saying a skill saw and a hand saw are the same,they can be used for the same purpose,but it doesn't make them classify in the same niche' or category,they are both saws,but not the same type of saw.For me personally I think cartridge type is one of the key identifying characteristics of what determines what category a firearm falls into,I know sometimes the lines blur a little,especially considering relatively new weapon types such as the personal defense weapon...not quite a submachinegun...not quite an assault rifle....interesting stuff,even if we are getting too damn technical...lol ;D



    War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks nothing worth a war, is worse.... A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares more about than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.----John Stuart Mill

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    Re: Assault rifle or battle rifle?

    Quote Originally Posted by dont_tread_on_me View Post
    La France Specialties called their 8" barreled M16K a "high-power submachine gun." The reasoning, as I understand it, that some individuals refer to weapons like the AKSU as SMGs is not solely the size, but primarily because such short-barreled assault rifles are intended for the same missions/roles as true (pistol-caliber) SMGs. For instance, the 5.56mm M16K was marketed as an alternative to the 9mm MP5
    I can understand the idea of what you refer to in that the two weapon systems would fulfill the same roll.However I don't see how it justifies classifying it as the same thing just because they can be used for the same purpose.It's kind of like saying a skill saw and a hand saw are the same,they can be used for the same purpose,but it doesn't make them classify in the same niche' or category,they are both saws,but not the same type of saw.For me personally I think cartridge type is one of the key identifying characteristics of what determines what category a firearm falls into.
    I agree with you. As far as I'm concerned, if it fires a rifle cartridge, it's not a submachine gun.

    Nevertheless, if you're writing a book about small arms, or creating advertising literature for a manufacturer, you have the ability to classify the AKSU as a SMG, or the M14 as an assault rifle, if you wish. Some people will disagree with you, but other people will accept your classifications.

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    DSM
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    Re: Assault rifle or battle rifle?

    Our own USAF referred to their versions of the original XM177's (CAR15's) as SMG's under their GAU and GUU designators.



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    Re: Assault rifle or battle rifle?

    Yeah, the military can categorize weapons however they want. Politicians, too. IIRC, many years ago Kalifornia law classified the semi-auto M1 carbine as a machine gun! : :duh:

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    Re: Assault rifle or battle rifle?

    IIRC, it was Jeff Cooper that wanted to distinguish between a rifle - which takes a real rifle round - and a carbine - which takes an intermediate powered round. Intermediate being "bigger than a pistol, smaller than a rifle".

    Since Chuck ran Gunsite in the old days, it would make sense he started using the terms The Jefe provided.

    The term "main battle rifle" is something I always thought of as "my battle rifle I would pick up if needed", as opposed to "my battle rifles I enjoy shooting but wouldn't trust if needed".

    FWIW, I term the XCR-L a battle carbine. That's what The Jefe used to call them, when he didn't want to offend the owner with the term "poodle shooter".
    Do you really think we want laws to be observed? We want them broken. There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. When there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be crimes that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants law-abiding citizens? Pass the kind of laws that can’t be observed, enforced, or objectively interpreted - and you create a nation of law-breakers.

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    Re: Assault rifle or battle rifle?

    It's been too long since I read Jeff Cooper's writings to recall what he said on that subject. But, I do remember that up until the Second World War a carbine was just a short-barreled variant of the standard infantry rifle, and both were chambered in the same caliber.

    Then along came the American M1 carbine and the German MKb42 machine carbine with their intermediate cartridges... :rapidfire: :sniper2:
    With the M16 rifle and M4 carbine, we've now come full circle. :toast:

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    QYV
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    Re: Assault rifle or battle rifle?

    Quote Originally Posted by stanc View Post
    It's been too long since I read Jeff Cooper's writings to recall what he said on that subject. But, I do remember that up until the Second World War a carbine was just a short-barreled variant of the standard infantry rifle, and both were chambered in the same caliber.

    Then along came the American M1 carbine and the German MKb42 machine carbine with their intermediate cartridges... :rapidfire: :sniper2:
    With the M16 rifle and M4 carbine, we've now come full circle. :toast:
    The MKb42 was originally the sMP42, or schwere Maschinenpistole 42: heavy Machine Pistol, 1942.

  11. #10
    Jack A Sol
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    Re: Assault rifle or battle rifle?

    this whole Assault rifle thing has come about due to weak bladdered gun owners and NRA members who dont want to offend people by calling thier guns what they are. >

    It's time for the owners of XCR's, AK, AR, SIG, FN2000, SCAR, and any other rifle that uses a reduced power, increased capacity rifle, to TAKE OWNERSHIP of the term Assault Rifle. Call your guns what they are. They are implements of both fun and destruction. I may be assaulting a terrorist target, cabbage patch doll, or the assembled forces of satan himself, but when I do I will be carrying my assault rifle (be it an NRA designated semi-auto or not). :ninja:


    a Battle Rifle is clearly meant to refer to the older full power cartridge rifles. It has been recently used by the same weak bladdered type to avoid the dreaded term ASSAULT RIFLE... ooooh scary isnt it. :


    Own your assault rifle and it's heritage. it's the proud heritage of fighters and warriors. It's one of defending thier country and loved ones from bad and evil people. The SAME eeeville people who want to take these rifles away from you. Let let them remember why they feared these rifle in the first place, and stop argueing about what to call them.

    I call mine Betty anyway's so this is a stupid discussion to have.

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