Aussie Doctors want to legalize killing newborns as "after - birth abortions"
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Thread: Aussie Doctors want to legalize killing newborns as "after - birth abortions"

  1. #1
    XCR Guru Difranco's Avatar
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    Aussie Doctors want to legalize killing newborns as "after - birth abortions"

    Remember have an open mind and as so long as you can make a convincing argument...

    http://jme.bmj.com/content/early/201...00411.abstract

    Abortion is largely accepted even for reasons that do not have anything to do with the fetus’ health. By showing that (1) both fetuses and newborns do not have the same moral status as actual persons, (2) the fact that both are potential persons is morally irrelevant and (3) adoption is not always in the best interest of actual people, [b]the authors argue that what we call ‘after-birth abortion’ (killing a newborn) should be permissible in all the cases where abortion is, including cases where the newborn is not disabled.
    People can rationalize anything.

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    XCR Guru MickeyC's Avatar
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    Re: Aussie Doctors want to legalize killing newborns as "after - birth abortions"

    I believe that was something Hitler advocated to create the perfect race.

    Frankly it's sick.

    There should be plenty of opportunity to avoid any 'need' for this. If a child can survive outside the uterus, it's got a right to life, no matter what.
    Semper in excremento sum, solum profunditas mutat. 'Always in the shit, only the depth varies'

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    Expert Mick Nartin's Avatar
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    Re: Aussie Doctors want to legalize killing newborns as "after - birth abortions"

    Did you read the article?

    First, the authors are not medical doctors. They are philosophers.

    Second, they are not advocating after-birth abortions, late-term abortions, or ANY abortions.

    Pretty clearly explained here:
    http://blog.practicalethics.ox.ac.uk...tion%E2%80%9D/
    "Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." -Mark Twain

    “It is something great and greatening to cherish an ideal; to act in the light of truth that is far-away and far above; to set aside the near advantage, the momentary pleasure; the snatching of seeming good to self; and to act for remoter ends, for higher good, and for interests other than our own.” -Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain

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    XCR Guru MickeyC's Avatar
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    Re: Aussie Doctors want to legalize killing newborns as "after - birth abortions"

    Yes, and the final statement does it. People should not be forced into something they can't afford.

    First up, if you can't afford a baby don't have sex, or take precautions.

    If a woman gets raped there are plenty options such as post conception birth control or early stage abortion.

    Additionally there are plenty of tests available to ascertain early on whether the foetus has issues. In this case the topic should be around reducing the cost for these tests.

    The concern with this approach is governing standards for deciding when and why to abort an otherwise viable foetus. Plenty of disabled or challenged children grow and have useful and enjoyable lives. Who sets the standard and who enforces it.

    As an idea it's akin to doctors who treat pregnancy and the foetus as simply a 'biological event'. As for the burden of raising a affected foetus, that is where society comes into play, or at least should.

    the idea that economic situations may change so a viable baby can now be aborted because the parent has no job is disgusting.
    Semper in excremento sum, solum profunditas mutat. 'Always in the shit, only the depth varies'

    The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.... Margaret Thatcher,

    Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest.
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    XCR Guru Difranco's Avatar
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    Re: Aussie Doctors want to legalize killing newborns as "after - birth abortions"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mick Nartin View Post
    Did you read the article?

    First, the authors are not medical doctors. They are philosophers.
    Irrelevant

    Quote Originally Posted by Mick Nartin View Post
    Second, they are not advocating after-birth abortions, late-term abortions, or ANY abortions.
    Wrong. They clearly do argue for the legalization of Infanticide... this paper is not a digest of what others have said but clearly takes a position.

    from the abstract:
    [b]the authors argue that what [b]we call ‘after-birth abortion’ (killing a newborn) should be permissible
    Therefore, [b]we argue that, when circumstances occur after birth such that they would have justified abortion, what [b]we call after-birth abortion should be permissible.
    [b]we claim that killing a newborn could be ethically permissible in all the circumstances where abortion would be.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mick Nartin View Post
    The Editor does little to defend the authors of the article but to say that the some of the ideas contained therein where brought up by other authors long before these two did. Even the editors claim of that the purpose of the Journal is to publish "well reasoned" articles except this article is not even well reasoned but falls victim to the continuum fallacy. I could make the same arguments they do except starting at the other end of the spectrum with old people and work backward. In fact it is so poorly reasoned they have to re-define words by calling infanticide (the murder of an infant) a "After-Birth Abortion". The positions contained in the article are so indefensible the editor spends more words calling random comments on the internet as 'hate speech' that will incite others to violence. Of course the editor is completely oblivious to the irony in the hate speech of these authors that will incite others to fatal violence against babies.
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    Expert Mick Nartin's Avatar
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    Re: Aussie Doctors want to legalize killing newborns as "after - birth abortions"

    Quote Originally Posted by Difranco View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mick Nartin View Post
    Did you read the article?

    First, the authors are not medical doctors. They are philosophers.
    Irrelevant
    It's relevant when you titled the post "Aussie Doctors want to legalize killing newborns as "after - birth abortions"

    They're not doctors, and the don't WANT to legalize anything. They want to look at the rationale behind abortion and see whether those arguments have a definitive endpoint at birth.

    It's an intellectual exercise, not a policy recommendation.

    Did you read the article BEFORE you posted it on this forum? Please be honest.
    "Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." -Mark Twain

    “It is something great and greatening to cherish an ideal; to act in the light of truth that is far-away and far above; to set aside the near advantage, the momentary pleasure; the snatching of seeming good to self; and to act for remoter ends, for higher good, and for interests other than our own.” -Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain

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    XCR Guru Difranco's Avatar
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    Re: Aussie Doctors want to legalize killing newborns as "after - birth abortions"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mick Nartin View Post

    It's relevant when you titled the post "Aussie Doctors want to legalize killing newborns as "after - birth abortions"

    They're not doctors,
    The authors would disagree with you since they use the title "Dr" themselves and have in fact completed their doctoral thesis and subsequently warded such by the University's where they studied.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mick Nartin View Post
    and the don't WANT to legalize anything. They want to look at the rationale behind abortion and see whether those arguments have a definitive endpoint at birth.
    You are turning the argument they make on it's head -- they are arguing whether or not they can use same the rationalizations for Infanticide as are used for abortions and then redefine infanticide as an "after-birth abortion".

    Their own words "(killing a newborn) should be permissible" and what institutions are they associated with:
    Centre for Applied Philosophy and Public Ethics & Oxford Uehiro Centre for Practical Ethics and how are ethics applied but through statutory law or through Judicial ruling. Not only do MD's, Bioethicists, 'Philosophers' read these journals but attorneys do as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mick Nartin View Post
    It's an intellectual exercise, not a policy recommendation.
    So it's idle mental gymnastics to imagine being able to kill babies and justify it! I don't know what's worse...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mick Nartin View Post
    Did you read the article BEFORE you posted it on this forum? Please be honest.
    Yes
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    Expert Mick Nartin's Avatar
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    Re: Aussie Doctors want to legalize killing newborns as "after - birth abortions"

    http://art-bin.com/art/omodest.html

    I suspect you did not read the article before you posted.

    Do you really refer to all PhD's as "doctors?" If I said, "I went to the doctor today." You'd ask, "MD or PhD?" Interesting.

    IMO, it was an inflammatory post, and it doesn't accurately reflect the article.

    They published an article in a journal. It's how educated/scientific society works. If you aren't going to make the effort to understand that, than don't comment on it.
    "Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." -Mark Twain

    “It is something great and greatening to cherish an ideal; to act in the light of truth that is far-away and far above; to set aside the near advantage, the momentary pleasure; the snatching of seeming good to self; and to act for remoter ends, for higher good, and for interests other than our own.” -Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain

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    XCR Guru TomAiello's Avatar
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    Re: Aussie Doctors want to legalize killing newborns as "after - birth abortions"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mick Nartin View Post
    [b]Do you really refer to all PhD's as "doctors?" If I said, "I went to the doctor today." You'd ask, "MD or PhD?" Interesting.
    I often see Chiropractors, Podiatrists and Physical Therapists referring to themselves as "Doctor".

    If they refer to themselves in this manner, then shouldn't others be allowed to do so as well? Or is that only permissible if referenced in a positive manner?
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  11. #10
    Expert Mick Nartin's Avatar
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    Re: Aussie Doctors want to legalize killing newborns as "after - birth abortions"

    Quote Originally Posted by TomAiello View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mick Nartin View Post
    [b]Do you really refer to all PhD's as "doctors?" If I said, "I went to the doctor today." You'd ask, "MD or PhD?" Interesting.
    I often see Chiropractors, Podiatrists and Physical Therapists referring to themselves as "Doctor".

    If they refer to themselves in this manner, then shouldn't others be allowed to do so as well? Or is that only permissible if referenced in a positive manner?
    Colonel Sanders wasn't a colonel...

    I'm just saying that a post that says, "Aussie Doctors want to legalize killing newborns as "after - birth abortions"" doesn't bring to mind chiropracters, podiatrists, or physical therapists... nevermind PhD's.

    Not saying it doesn't happen, but it's not de rigueur.
    "Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." -Mark Twain

    “It is something great and greatening to cherish an ideal; to act in the light of truth that is far-away and far above; to set aside the near advantage, the momentary pleasure; the snatching of seeming good to self; and to act for remoter ends, for higher good, and for interests other than our own.” -Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain

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