Fear based LEO training coming to light
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Thread: Fear based LEO training coming to light

  1. #1
    XCR Guru TexasChris's Avatar
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    Fear based LEO training coming to light

    Based on the historical results I have long suspected this was the case.....but we're now confirming.

    Fear-based training for police officers is challenged - StarTribune.com

    Fear-based training for police officers is challenged

    An instructor of fear-based training is booked more than 200 times a year.
    By David Chanen Star Tribune
    JULY 11, 2018 — 11:34PM



    JEFF WHEELER, STAR TRIBUNEAudience members reacted to viewing footage of the shooting of Philando Castile during a presentation at the beginning of Wednesday's forum in Minneapolis on police training.

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    Community members and activists came together Wednesday to criticize the controversial "fear-based" police officer training used by local officers involved in two deaths.
    The training was taught by fear-based training pioneer Dave Grossman. The premise of his classes is that officers are "at war" on the domestic front and need psychological training to become "warriors" to overcome their resistance to killing. If not, they could be killed in the line of duty, he says.
    Former St. Anthony police officer Jeronimo Yanez, who killed Philando Castile during a traffic stop, took 56 hours of "fear-based" training before Castile's death. Minneapolis officer Justin Schmidt, who killed Thurman Blevins in a North Side alley last month, teaches similar training.
    About 35 people attended the meeting in Minneapolis, which comes as the community is seeking answers in Blevins' death.
    On Thursday, the head of the state Bureau of Criminal Apprehension will discuss the case at Webber Park community center in north Minneapolis.
    "This training isn't just theoretical," said Michelle Gross, head of Communities United Against Police Brutality. "It's having a real impact on the community."


    JEFF WHEELER, STAR TRIBUNE
    Panelists Sandi Simonson, left, and Rachael Rivard listened as Raj Sethuraju, a criminal justice professor, spoke about the origins of organized police work by the British in Ireland.
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    That training, which Grossman recently presented to 37 officers at the Mall of America in Bloomington, intentionally targets the emotion of fear. Once an officer makes a decision to take a life, that officer is transformed, he said. Last year, 1,147 people were killed by police.
    Fear-based training courses such as "Bulletproof Warrior," which Yanez took, are turning police officers into "warriors" who view the community as "enemy combatants," said Gross. The Minnesota Peace Officers Standards and Training Board has approved hundreds of Grossman's courses for continuing education credit, she added.
    Yet major police policy organizations, such as the Police Executive Research Forum and International Association of Chiefs of Police have repudiated Grossman's training.
    The meeting, developed by the Coalition to End Fear-Based Training, included presentations from criminal justice professor Raj Sethuraju, researcher Rachael Rivard, mental health professional Sandi Simonson and civil rights attorney Robin Magee.
    The group produced a short video showing snippets of Grossman's classes and field training. Grossman, who says he is a former Army ranger, started teaching his "killology" methods more than 20 years ago. He is booked for more than 200 dates each year and has trained more than 20,000 officers. The Legislature unsuccessfully tried to outlaw this type of training in 2002.
    The video includes the cellphone video of Castile's 2016 death in Falcon Heights. Yanez was found not guilty of second-degree manslaughter and two other felony charges.
    Falcon Heights had contracted with St. Anthony, where Yanez was employed, for police services but ended the contract after the shooting and instead hired the Ramsey County Sheriff's Office.
    Grossman tells officers that "only a killer can hurt a killer." He asks them if "you are willing to snuff out a life to protect innocent people."
    When he surveyed officers about deadly shootings, the concern he most often heard was over liability and lawsuits. He stressed to officers to "shoot first and worry about questions later."
    Grossman's training is taught to officers, but also to first responders, schools, churches and civilians. Every encounter with a person could be your last, he said at his class.
    Simonson had been aware of Grossman's training since the state tried to ban his classes. She is worried about the psychological ramifications of fear-based training for officers.
    After one of Grossman's classes, Simonson talked to a person who said the training left her feeling awful and fearful. A main component of the class is teaching officers to be able to "turn your killing instinct on and off like a faucet." But the training, she said, never deals with turning off the faucet.
    "The community has to be more aware of what kind of training officers are receiving," she said. "Does this training fit into a department's policies and the goals of how they serve the community?"
    Rivard started looking into Grossman's training about two years ago and found it "inflammatory, disgusting and scary for us as a community." She said many of the claims he makes, such as being a Pulitzer Prize nominated author and an Army Ranger, are untrue.
    "The man who is presenting fear-based training to officers is not representing himself honestly," she said.
    Reviews of his classes say he's an incredible speaker, but Grossman is a fear-monger who tells officers they need to know "all about violence," she said.


    JEFF WHEELER, STAR TRIBUNE
    At the beginning of the forum, Curtis Avent, of Justice Occupation for Philando, talked about one of the ideas a proponent of fear-based training, Lt. Col Dave Grossman espouses at his seminars for law enforcement.
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    "Police departments have to think critically about the spin in these classes," said Rivard. "This is why he is so dangerous."

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    XCR Guru Sean K.'s Avatar
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    Same Dave Grossman who wrote "On Killing" for military? Militarize much?

    Truth is...there is a middle ground to this story...one that's not portrayed by this biased article. We need to have a serious discussion about appropriate use of force, proper roles of PEACE OFFICERS, militarization, the failed WoD, etc., but instead this story seeks to polarize the anti-police crowd just as much as the pro-police crowd is polarized by articles arguing that anything the police do is appropriate.

    I welcome the discussion...but as we've seen here on probably one of the most libertarian sites on the web, you have authoritarians and pacifists who can't see the middle ground at all.

    I will say this....in the Yanez case, Grossman clearly did his job. He scared the living shit out of Yanez to the point he would have killed a 90 year old woman in a coma thinking she could "come out of it at any second, guns blazing". Dude NEVER should have been a cop....
    Merlin likes this.
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    XCR Guru TexasChris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean K. View Post
    Same Dave Grossman who wrote "On Killing" for military? Militarize much?
    The very.

    Truth is...there is a middle ground to this story...one that's not portrayed by this biased article. We need to have a serious discussion about appropriate use of force, proper roles of PEACE OFFICERS, militarization, the failed WoD, etc., but instead this story seeks to polarize the anti-police crowd just as much as the pro-police crowd is polarized by articles arguing that anything the police do is appropriate.
    I hear ya...shades of "firing this ar 15 gave me ptsd."

    I don't know what the fix is but going back through an old thread here (clearing the air about nevada) I was amazed at how much that conversation foreshadowed many of my future exchanges. People being intentionally obtuse, intentionally misrepresenting what is being discussed and generally displaying an absolute unwillingness to admit reality. That thread was like a condensed version of our current political climate.

    I welcome the discussion...but as we've seen here on probably one of the most libertarian sites on the web, you have authoritarians and pacifists who can't see the middle ground at all.
    It's very puzzling to me....and I don't know if you remember the thread I just mentioned but I can't believe how patient I was in the beginning, describing and re-describing the position with attention to nuance and subtlety that would make a bookie look twice. The amount of energy expended on avoiding the discussion was insane.

    Not to toot my own horn but there was a lot of abuse doled out before I threw my hands up and concluded that you can't fix stupid.

    I will say this....in the Yanez case, Grossman clearly did his job. He scared the living shit out of Yanez to the point he would have killed a 90 year old woman in a coma thinking she could "come out of it at any second, guns blazing". Dude NEVER should have been a cop....
    We're living in the same world.
    Sean K. likes this.
    Do what you've always done, get what you've always got. ----- Have gun. Will travel.

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  5. #4
    XCR Guru Sean K.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasChris View Post
    The very.



    I hear ya...shades of "firing this ar 15 gave me ptsd."

    I don't know what the fix is but going back through an old thread here (clearing the air about nevada) I was amazed at how much that conversation foreshadowed many of my future exchanges. People being intentionally obtuse, intentionally misrepresenting what is being discussed and generally displaying an absolute unwillingness to admit reality. That thread was like a condensed version of our current political climate.



    It's very puzzling to me....and I don't know if you remember the thread I just mentioned but I can't believe how patient I was in the beginning, describing and re-describing the position with attention to nuance and subtlety that would make a bookie look twice. The amount of energy expended on avoiding the discussion was insane.

    Not to toot my own horn but there was a lot of abuse doled out before I threw my hands up and concluded that you can't fix stupid.



    We're living in the same world.
    Ya, I remember the thread. It was our beloved TechMan who was being the authoritarian DB along with Sig who just refused to see the contradictions in their own statements to the reality in which we now live. From what I'm seeing now in our society, the election of Trump has emboldened these retards to a level that borders on blind obedience. I've never seen so many people claiming "God" put him in office and how he's been 'ordained by God' to be our leader, blah, blah, blah...as if he's not an egotistical, philandering, misogynistic douche bag of epic proportions. I guess the same can be said of the Obama worshipers...they don't see any flaws in him either.

    In short, the country's fucked on both sides of the aisle and no one wants to hear from the center.....the funniest part is....we're now the center. Count down to implosion has begun.
    "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human liberty. It is the argument of tyrants; the creed of slaves."-William Pitt the Younger

  6. #5
    XCR Guru TexasChris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean K. View Post
    Ya, I remember the thread. It was our beloved TechMan who was being the authoritarian DB along with Sig who just refused to see the contradictions in their own statements to the reality in which we now live. From what I'm seeing now in our society, the election of Trump has emboldened these retards to a level that borders on blind obedience. I've never seen so many people claiming "God" put him in office and how he's been 'ordained by God' to be our leader, blah, blah, blah...as if he's not an egotistical, philandering, misogynistic douche bag of epic proportions. I guess the same can be said of the Obama worshipers...they don't see any flaws in him either.

    In short, the country's fucked on both sides of the aisle and no one wants to hear from the center.....the funniest part is....we're now the center. Count down to implosion has begun.
    One thing that's on my mind more and more is AI/predictive analysis. The technology that's being pumped out right now is either going to make this an interesting time to be alive or a no contest loss.

    The capability is about to parabolic as well, we're on the cusp of machines designing machines and programs designing programs that are light years from just beating you in chess.
    Sean K. likes this.
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  7. #6
    XCR Guru Merlin's Avatar
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    They have been doing this for years I guess. "I am going home tonight" turned into this, war on the streets.
    Wasn't it Ben Kurata - (I hope he is OK, since we haven't heard from him lately) that said he has a difficult time training ex-military, to not double tap someone already down while they secure the perimeter. Add this training to it is not good. Name:  grenade.gif
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