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  1. #11
    XCR Guru TomAiello's Avatar
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    In my mind, the point is not to elect a specific candidate (or party), but to try to slow down the rapid growth of electoral fraud.

    This isn't really a Trump-Biden issue. It's a long term issue about the democratic (or not) nature of the decision making process in the US.

    If the political class (I'm not differentiating by party here) learns the lesson that they can get away with blatant electoral fraud, I think that's a serious problem, no matter what--even if both of the heads of the two headed serpent are doing the same thing. The 'but the republicrats are doing it too!' argument is just a shell game, meant to confuse the nation into thinking there is an actual choice between the different arms of the establishment.
    Last edited by TomAiello; 12-09-2020 at 12:56 PM.
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  2. #12
    Sig
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomAiello View Post
    In my mind, the point is not to elect a specific candidate (or party), but to try to slow down the rapid growth of electoral fraud.

    This isn't really a Trump-Biden issue. It's a long term issue about the democratic (or not) nature of the decision making process in the US.

    If the political class (I'm not differentiating by party here) learns the lesson that they can get away with blatant electoral fraud, I think that's a serious problem, no matter what--even if both of the heads of the two headed serpent are doing the same thing. The 'but the republicrats are doing it too!' argument is just a shell game, meant to confuse the nation into thinking there is an actual choice between the different arms of the establishment.
    I agree with you 100% Tom.

    I do find it hard to believe given the rhetoric prior to this national election, both parties had safeguards in place to ensure state laws were followed to a tee. Being thee ignoramus I am, I can't help but think that if laws or procedures were broken in this past election, something out of the court proceedings would of been found in favor of those claiming fraud.

    I also believe that it is much easier to rig a local election compared to a national election, and I'm not that naive to believe that people don't try to rig elections, no matter what the political party.

    All one has to do is look at our country's past to understand that rampant nepotism can keep some people in positions of power. Battle of Athens is one that always comes to mind, but I don't believe they go over that in our high school history books.
    Last edited by Sig; 12-09-2020 at 05:03 PM.
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  3. #13
    XCR Guru TexasChris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sig View Post
    I agree with you 100% Tom.

    I do find it hard to believe given the rhetoric prior to this national election, both parties had safeguards in place to ensure state laws were followed to a tee. Being thee ignoramus I am, I can't help but think that if laws or procedures were broken in this past election, something out of the court proceedings would of been found in favor of those claiming fraud.

    Just a thing to keep in mind, it benefits both parties that nothing but misinformation and disinformation see the light of day (with regard to electoral fraud), and that punishment is as light as possible (fines ideally). This may not be the mindset of every cog, but it is highly likely to be an explicit thought shared by those at the helm of the machine.

    If A sees B cheat, and has a desire to cheat better, B now has vested interest that runs the spectrum between passive observation of consequence, to the opposite extreme, active mitigation.
    Last edited by TexasChris; 12-09-2020 at 05:10 PM.
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  5. #14
    Sig
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasChris View Post
    Just a thing to keep in mind, it benefits both parties that nothing but misinformation and disinformation see the light of day (with regard to electoral fraud), and that punishment is as light as possible (fines ideally). This may not be the mindset of every cog, but it is highly likely to be an explicit thought shared by those at the helm of the machine.
    I have no doubt that both parties are just trying to baffle us with bullshite.

    I could be wrong, but per the the national election, I believe part of the issue is that states have varying laws on what is and what isn't allowed.
    If assholes could fly, this place would be JFK international.

  6. #15
    XCR Guru TomAiello's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sig View Post
    I also believe that it is much easier to rig a local election compared to a national election, and I'm not that naive to believe that people don't try to rig elections, no matter what the political party.
    In this case, the national election was decided by local election margins (tens of thousands of votes or less) in several local areas. That means the stakes for the 'small, local' cheating were HUGE this time around.


    I can't help but think that if laws or procedures were broken in this past election, something out of the court proceedings would of been found in favor of those claiming fraud.


    The courts work within a very specific legal framework. In order for a court to decide something, it must be presented to them. For example, the security video showing the poll workers in Fulton County first kicking out all the observers and then, once they were not observed, producing boxes full of ballots they had hidden earlier, is not in court anywhere, because in order for that to happen, the police have to make arrests and a DA has to file charges. If the police refuse to arrest _or_ the DA refuses to indict, either of which could obviously be highly politicized (in this case the police actually report to the one of the primary beneficiaries of high turnout in Fulton County--the Mayor of Atlanta), the courts are powerless to act.

    Civil society is not the result of one single actor or set of actors--it's an entire system. If enough of the pieces are broken, the entire system stops functioning.


    Speaking of timing of police investigations to political convenience, I noticed that the federal government is now investigating Hunter Biden. They apparently 'paused' their investigation so as not to have an impact on that little election thing. Because no one would have wanted to disturb that...
    Last edited by TomAiello; 12-09-2020 at 06:43 PM.
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  7. #16
    XCR Guru TomAiello's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sig View Post
    I could be wrong, but per the the national election, I believe part of the issue is that states have varying laws on what is and what isn't allowed.
    The issue is that the states did not follow their own rules about what is or is not allowed. The state legislatures made laws about these things, and then the executive simply changed them without the approval of the legislature. The executive should not be allowed to ignore the expressed will of the legislature--what we generally term 'The Law' (capital letters intentional). The executive is not the law maker in our system.
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  8. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasChris View Post
    It occurs to me that whether substantiated or otherwise, the primary goal of the "election fraud" dog and pony may be the undermining of public faith in the electoral process. Imagine both parties of voters united in their desire for a solution and in their ignorance, demanding that the government come up with it.......there's an obscene elegance about it.
    Obscene elegance is what I am seeing...
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  9. #18
    Marksman scalton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomAiello View Post
    The issue is that the states did not follow their own rules about what is or is not allowed. The state legislatures made laws about these things, and then the executive simply changed them without the approval of the legislature. The executive should not be allowed to ignore the expressed will of the legislature--what we generally term 'The Law' (capital letters intentional). The executive is not the law maker in our system.
    I agree completely with this

    I believe this is a major part of the Texas lawsuit it filled now joined by 20 different state AG's, they are arguing in part that the 4 states named as defendants violated their own state constitutions by the changes they made. That the executive and judicial made changes where the US constitution says that power belongs in the legislator of each state. Texas is claiming that the people of Texas that voted for Trump were "injured" by these illegal rulings. This is going to get very interesting real soon and this case isn't going to get tossed out like the others IMO

    I believe there was massive voter fraud in these swing states, and more than usual in the other states. Over 1,000 sworn affidavits and counting, ballot harvesting, rerunning ballots for Biden, not allowing people to observe the counting, defying court orders to allow the observers, ect ect.
    I believe China and the Democrat's are behind this, It looks like Biden is suffering from some sort of mental decline and memory issues but he said that "Secondly we're in a situation where we have put together, and you guys did it for our administration- President Obama's administration before this-we have put together I think the most extensive and inclusive voter fraud organization in the history of politics" and "I don't need you to get me elected, I need you once I'm elected" you might say he had a senior moment or was it a slip?
    Trump was having 3-4 rallies a day 20,000+ people, Biden didn't even seem to campaign almost like he knew he didn't have to. Trump parades, flotillas and flags are everywhere hardly a Biden Harris sticker on a car or in a yard.
    Election night Trump has very big leads around 10 Pm my time and vanished overnight in a couple of hours, I could go on and on

    Trump wasn't supposed to win last time, Obama was the starting pitcher and Hillary was the closer, the deep state (whatever you want to call them) didn't believe that so many Americans were tired of the 2 headed coin and voted for an outsider even if it was the Apprentice. His Presidency delayed their plans for 4 years and this time they weren't going to allow it to happen again. They had the computers with the desired algorithms, ballots of ballots waiting if they were needed. They didn't count on him getting even more votes than last time especially after 4 years of bashing him for everything and anything but were ready with the ballots if needed.

    I also believe they didn't try to hide it that much, they have their people in the places they need to be to throw out lawsuits, to certify their results even as the state legislators are meeting to discuss voting issues and the press which is nothing more than the propagation arm of the Democratic party.

    I'm not a Trump guy he wouldn't of made my top 200 million for President but last election I would of voted for anyone literally anyone over Hellary, this isn't about Trump this is about the deep state sticking a fork in what's left of America and bringing it into the new world order. Trumps truest statement while in office was "they aren't coming for me, they are coming for you , I'm just in the way. Democrat's want to start lists of Trump staff, contributors and supporters, just today Michigan House Democrat Cynthia Johnson calling on her soldiers to make Trump supporters and republicans pay for what they did.

    Sorry for the long and rambling post but I truly believe civil war is just around the corner no matter who wins, if it is Biden then gun cornification is most likely it, it might start sooner depending on SCOTUS ruling on the Texas lawsuit

    Edit I wanted to add I also believe there are major Republicans that are in on this fraud, Trump is an outsider and a threat to all politicians
    Last edited by scalton; 12-09-2020 at 11:30 PM.
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  10. #19
    XCR Guru TomAiello's Avatar
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    I was actually pretty impressed with our (Idaho) Attorney General and his thinking on this lawsuit. He was one of only five Republican AGs who declined to join the suit on behalf of his state, and the only one who gave a statement explaining his reasoning:

    Idaho Attorney General Lawrence Wasden did not sign on to the lawsuit. In a statement Thursday, he said “the legally correct decision may not be the politically convenient decision,” but that his responsibility was to Idaho.

    “This decision is necessary to protect Idaho’s sovereignty. As attorney general, I have significant concerns about supporting a legal argument that could result in other states litigating against legal decisions made by Idaho’s Legislature and governor,” Wasden said in a news release. “Idaho is a sovereign state and should be free to govern itself without interference from any other state. Likewise, Idaho should respect the sovereignty of its sister states.”
    Reading between the lines, I think he's the only public official I've seen who is concerned (as I am) about the 'obscene elegance' that Chris observed. And this is his way of speaking against it.

    Full Story: https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/...247765425.html


    I have to say that in the ridiculousness of 2020, I've been mostly pleased with the actions of my state officials, who have generally shown more thoughtfulness and fewer knee jerk reactions than those in other states (both red and blue), despite political pressures and popular outcry.

    Last edited by TomAiello; 12-13-2020 at 12:28 PM.
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  11. #20
    XCR Guru Sean K.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomAiello View Post
    I was actually pretty impressed with our (Idaho) Attorney General and his thinking on this lawsuit. He was one of only five Republican AGs who declined to join the suit on behalf of his state, and the only one who gave a statement explaining his reasoning:



    Reading between the lines, I think he's the only public official I've seen who is concerned (as I am) about the 'obscene elegance' that Chris observed. And this is his way of speaking against it.

    Full Story: https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/...247765425.html


    I have to say that in the ridiculousness of 2020, I've been mostly pleased with the actions of my state officials, who have generally shown more thoughtfulness and fewer knee jerk reactions than those in other states (both red and blue), despite political pressures and popular outcry.


    Gotta respect that sovereignty argument.
    "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human liberty. It is the argument of tyrants; the creed of slaves."-William Pitt the Younger

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