ATF's Allegedly "Objective" Factors for Classifying Pistol Braces
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 11

Thread: ATF's Allegedly "Objective" Factors for Classifying Pistol Braces

  1. #1
    XCR Guru Sean K.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    AZ
    Posts
    21,932

    ATF's Allegedly "Objective" Factors for Classifying Pistol Braces

    "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human liberty. It is the argument of tyrants; the creed of slaves."-William Pitt the Younger

  2. #2
    Marksman SSBiggun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Salt Lake City Utah
    Posts
    599
    If this is gonna open up a blanket amnesty for registering the now classified SBR's I'm not about to leave that shitty brace on it. If I have to register it as such then that is what it will be.
    A M16 is a fancy city girl, sexy as hell, but a bit moody. It's all good as long as you take her to the clubs and get what she asks. If you cross the? line, its over.

    An AK is a naughty girl, all in latex and with a whip begging you to be naughty. The nastier you are the happier she is. Its clear that she wont dump you, you'll have to do that on your own.
    The XCR is the perfect blend of both. Sexy as hell but willing to let you beat her and filthy her up and then beg for more.

  3. #3
    XCR Guru Sean K.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    AZ
    Posts
    21,932
    https://www.tacticalshit.com/pistol-...%20%23Armbrace



    At first glance and based on what we are hearing from Military Arms Channel who actually broke this news and leaked this document, this may be the largest gun registration in American History disquised as a reclassification of arm brace guns as NFA Weapons and offering an “Amnesty Period” to owners so they can “register” for free without paying the tax.
    According to Military Arms Channel,
    In the next 48 hours the DOJ will publish a letter for a rule change on the Federal Register that will possibly change the public perception of braces and place the ATF in a position to rule on any individual braced pistol to be an illegal SBR. Things like caliber, length of pull, accessories like scopes, forward hand grips, drum magazines and bipods may lead the ATF to deem your particular firearm to be an illegal SBR. However, the letter does not offer any detailed guidance as to the specifics such as the calibers that make it a SBR, the specific length of pull, the weight, etc. it only speaks in generalities. Because the letter does not clearly define what is a legal braced configuration vs. an illegal SBR, it leaves owners to guess for themselves what might be legal and what isn’t. Owners will have the option of registering their braced pistol on the NFA but the tax will we waived as long as the gun was in said configuration prior to the publication of the DOJ letter. You will also be able to remove the brace, surrender the gun, change the barrel length to 16” or destroy the firearm. The letter on the Federal Register will be open for comments for 2 weeks. The end of the letter states that the rule change does not carry the force of law. So what does it mean? Only the ATF and DOJ seem to know. Welcome to the largest gun registration scheme in US history. I hope you’re as pissed off as I am.
    IMPORTANT: NOTICE OF PROPOSED BRACED PISTOL LEGALITY
    This is the actual proposed notice / rule change from the DOJ and ATF regarding braced pistols. This is the document that will set the tone for ATF’s enforcement arm and how they will potentially view each individual firearm with a brace.
    You will notice in this document plenty of ambiguity and lack of clarification on things such as what specific features would make a legally braced pistol vs. an illegal SBR.
    It’s 16 pages of text. I encourage everyone to share and read this document. Then start blowing up the phone lines of everyone from the President to your congressmen.
    My lawyer tells me the APA requires more than 2 weeks for comments for a formal rule change. This may change by the time this is published to the Federal Register sometime most likely tomorrow. There are a lot more questions than answers in this document.
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/cclm7pnr0n...SGFc_vLhWVdr0E
    Last edited by Sean K.; 12-17-2020 at 10:14 AM.
    "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human liberty. It is the argument of tyrants; the creed of slaves."-William Pitt the Younger

  4. Remove Advertisements
    XCRForum.com
    Advertisements
     

  5. #4
    XCR Guru Sean K.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    AZ
    Posts
    21,932
    Quote Originally Posted by SSBiggun View Post
    If this is gonna open up a blanket amnesty for registering the now classified SBR's I'm not about to leave that shitty brace on it. If I have to register it as such then that is what it will be.
    Good luck getting a stock though....

    I'd wager the 'stock' portion of the XCR FAST brace will take forever to get.....

    What would be wise (but likely won't happen) is for gun mfgs to be making 16" uppers en masse; just absolutely cranking them out. There's going to be a whole lot of people who'd rather go 16" then get registered with NFA even if (as I read somewhere but now cannot find) they waive the $200 stamp fee.

    What needs to happen but will not with the new administration is a repeal of NFA. Way to fuck the pooch on that, Trump-a-dump.
    Last edited by Sean K.; 12-17-2020 at 10:18 AM.
    "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human liberty. It is the argument of tyrants; the creed of slaves."-William Pitt the Younger

  6. #5
    XCR Guru Sean K.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    AZ
    Posts
    21,932
    https://www.ammoland.com/2020/12/pis...#axzz6gqJm7af0

    Read more: https://www.ammoland.com/2020/12/pis...#ixzz6gth7gQwG
    Under Creative Commons License: Attribution
    Follow us: @Ammoland on Twitter | Ammoland on Facebook

    Pistol Brace Criminalization and How to SBR a Pistol
    Ammoland Inc. Posted on December 16, 2020 by Michael Ware
    AR15 SBR PSA AKV Pistol
    AR15 SBR PSA AKV Pistol IMG Jim Grant

    U.S.A. –-(AmmoLand.com)- I'm hearing too many rumors over pistol brace criminalization to ignore this distinct and real possibility. I’ve lost my perspective somewhat on what ‘regulations' some agencies are willing to enshrine. With each significant question I've faced in my life, I've pondered two things. First, whom do I seek to serve with my actions? Second, who ultimately, are the beneficiaries of the intended outcome? I seriously doubt these are the kinds of ethical quandaries ATF considers with their regulations. Simply translated, our pistol braced weapons might well be on the chopping block.

    If perfectly legal pistol braces and being slated for criminalization, there are some obvious things to consider. First and foremost is pushback on our part. I'm a decent and moral American, as are you. At every turn when our ‘rulers' seek to wave a magic wand and make our goods and actions illegal, we should voice our thoughts. Send letters, write emails, make calls to ATF, and flood your elected officials in the House and Senate with those same communications with your outrage. It is vital to offer them the expectation they'll act on your behalf. Why? Because you vote and their action or inaction on this will influence your next ballot. There are no shortages of advocacy groups you can join to help in this fight. The fight comes first, always. Our plight is continual and if you're not part of the solution, by definition you're part of the problem. So, get on board.

    However, there is always the possibility our efforts may not come to fruition. ATF may attempt making legal pistol brace owners criminals. Thus, we're always wise to have a contingency at the ready. We may face a really tough choice on what to do with an AR or AK style “pistol” or anything utilizing a pistol brace. We should explore those options and consider them fully.

    I own and operate Controlled Chaos Arms. While I have a manufacturing FFL, I’m considered a ‘dealer’ for the purposes of ATF business when it comes to a Form 4, which is a transfer of an NFA item. As a dealer, I can transfer from my inventory an NFA weapon to you an individual, trust, or corporation through this Form 4 submission. However, as the owner of your pistol, you can register this yourself through an ATF process called the Form 1.

    I’ve been thinking about this long and hard. In the case that the pistol brace goes the way of the dodo bird, we have some choices to consider. As it appears you could dismantle the weapon and wait to see what happens. You could sell, destroy, or be done with that arm brace component. Another option would be to register it as an SBR (Short Barreled Rifle) with ATF through the Form 1 process and remit your $200 per weapon (serial number). Or… You could attach a vertical grip to your former pistol, rendering it an AOW (Any Other Weapon), and remit your $200 as well.

    Why? Because ATF defines a pistol as ‘designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand’ and when you add a second vertical grip the ATF claims that the weapon is now designed to be used by two hands. Amazing huh? The addition of a piece of aluminum or plastic to an existing pistol makes it something completely different. We need more ATF regulations and definitions, don’t we? (#rollingeyes) There is a bright side to the AOW route though, as the TRANSFER of an AOW is $5, not $200. But to MAKE either the SBR or AOW it’ll cost your $200 smackers for the tax stamp.
    How does one Form 1 a weapon?

    You’ll need to mark the weapon permanently according to ATF specifications. Engraving, casting, stamping, or impressing of the information you’re required to mark the firearm comes with specifications. The depth of the engraving cannot be less than .003” deep. Additionally, the print size can’t be smaller than 1/16 inch. This means that if your cousin owns a laser in his print shop that is capable of making plaques for your golf outing winners, but can nearly be wiped off by a brush of your thumb from the side of your AK receiver, it won’t pass muster. I know lots of people who take their stuff into a laser engraver and it does not adhere to the strict guide put forth by ATF. Find some specifics on page 3 HERE.

    If you have a weapon that someone else manufactured, you are simply the ‘maker’ of the NFA weapon. In which case you’ll need to label it accordingly along with your locale. Here’s an example:

    Joe Blow

    OR

    Joe Blow Trust (when you’re using a trust instead of an individual filing)

    AND

    Town, State (state abbreviations are acceptable and common)

    More information is required if you built up an 80% unit though or you have a weapon with no markings on it. You’re the manufacturer now in a sense, not the maker, so the engraving list gets longer. In addition to the markings above, you’ll need to add:

    SN: 0001 (the “SN” serial number designation along with the number)

    CAL: 9MM (the Caliber and number)

    MODEL: AR-14 (There’s no reason this part can’t be fun)

    Your information needs to be identical on the Form 1 and the weapon. I can’t stress this enough. I have a Type 07 Manufacturing FFL and I can assure you if you want problems with ATF a great way to achieve this silly goal is to have your form information vary from your markings. You need to mark the places where you’d find a standard marking on everything else. Don’t screw around and mark a pistol slide, or the top cover of an AK, or AR upper receiver. You want the frame, lower receiver, main receiver, etc. That’s the ‘gun’ as far as ATF is concerned and that’s the proper choice of items to mark. HERE is ATF info on marking.

    One final note on markings… In Title I land, you’ll find no shortage of weapons marked “multi” these days. However, in NFA-ville, there is no such thing. NFA weapons are specifically marked, as this registration follows the weapon around forever. Any change from what the national registry reflection, will need to be communicated to ATF. So, you can’t put “multi” down for your caliber. If your caliber is 5.56mm, then mark your firearm as such, and your Form 1 should reflect that. If you change the weapon configuration from a 10.5” stick in 5.56 to a 10.5” in 300BO, you need to contact ATF and have the registry updated. They can advise at that time on marking, as I’ve had two customers tell me they were not advised to change their weapon markings and many others that did. The same goes for tech changes. If your weapon is a 5.56 with a 10.5” stick and you change to a 5.56 with a 12” stick, the barrel length and overall weapon length are now different from the specs in the national registry, thus an update from you is necessary. When you play in the NFA things are very specific and alterations are fine, but require communication from you.
    Don’t shirk your responsibilities for this or you can be in real trouble.

    Let’s go over how to submit your Form 1. You can download that document HERE if you like and fill it out in paper format. It looks like a pain in the rear end, but it really isn’t. After you do one or two, you’ll be an ace and won’t take issue with it. I’ve seen applications to become members of some churches that are more exhausting. Or, you can utilize the ATF eForms page and do the work through the internet. Always take a moment when using the internet to thank Al Gore for his invention. I know I do.

    Once you arrive at the eForms page, you’ll need a User ID and password, so head to the bottom of the page and hit the green button where it says, “Register” to get started. Simply fill it out and begin. Here’s the skinny though… Unlike everyone else on the internet, ATF can’t make their portal work well and it is down weekly for maintenance. This is not me hacking on ATF for fun and profit. This is the truth. DO NOT ram and jam your way through screens. Once you have clicked a button, take a break as the system fires up the squirrels necessary to spin wheeled cages and make the magic happen. If you force your way through each field thinking repeated clicks on a button will help, you’re set up for disappointment. Also, do yourself a favor and don’t even bother to use the system on Wednesdays. Not a joke. Wednesday is quite literally scheduled weekly maintenance for that site and portal. You will accomplish little more than high blood pressure by an attempt at a Wednesday submittal. Granted, I haven’t actually attempted a Wednesday form submission for several months, but I’d be shocked to find it working since the framework and backend don’t appear to have been updated since Methuselah was knee-high to a grasshopper…

    I’m told by customers the eForms fly through. My definition and theirs are quite different in terms of what “fly” means. I know with certainty there is no reason an eForm can’t take one business day to process. The rest of the world does it, so ATF can. But they don’t. So, my buddies are tickled when they see an eForm clear in a month or a little more. Paper Form 1 submissions are taking about 4 months as of the date of this article. When you compare this against Form 4 submissions from the 2016/2017 era, when I had some languish for a year and a half, this sounds pretty good. When I can import a belt-fed machine gun, have it chopped to satisfy DOJ, and get it transferred through customs and to me quicker than Joe Blow can register his new SBR or AOW, there’s a fundamental flaw in the system. But, that’s a squabble for a future article. Maybe sometime I should sit down with an ATF official and ascertain what the nature of the problems are on their end. Who knows, I might be able to help.

    The instructions on the forms are pretty straight forward. You’re told how to fill out the documents with a long list of instructions and definitions. If you’re paper filing, the location to mail is at the top of the document under a thick black line. All you have to do is cough up the bucks, adhere to all your state and local laws, and remember I’m no lawyer – just a hell of a gun plumber, shower singer extraordinaire, and writer.
    "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human liberty. It is the argument of tyrants; the creed of slaves."-William Pitt the Younger

  7. #6
    XCR Guru Sean K.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    AZ
    Posts
    21,932
    From the tactical shit article:

    Owners will have the option of registering their braced pistol on the NFA but the tax will we waived as long as the gun was in said configuration prior to the publication of the DOJ letter. You will also be able to remove the brace, surrender the gun, change the barrel length to 16” or destroy the firearm.

    So I was under the very misguided assumption that one could just remove the brace and keep it as a pistol. However, b/c ATF is going to say brace equipped pistols are automatically SBRs, it's already converted (by the factory if it came with the brace) to a rifle and once a rifle, it cannot go back to being a pistol....which makes my 16" uppers should be getting cranked out argument all the more valid.

    So, why aren't they arresting gun mfgs for selling NFA SBRs without form 4s? Or is that also on the table?
    Last edited by Sean K.; 12-17-2020 at 10:15 AM.
    "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human liberty. It is the argument of tyrants; the creed of slaves."-William Pitt the Younger

  8. #7
    Marksman SSBiggun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Salt Lake City Utah
    Posts
    599
    Quote Originally Posted by Sean K. View Post
    Good luck getting a stock though....

    I'd wager the 'stock' portion of the XCR FAST brace will take forever to get.....

    What would be wise (but likely won't happen) is for gun mfgs to be making 16" uppers en masse; just absolutely cranking them out. There's going to be a whole lot of people who'd rather go 16" then get registered with NFA even if (as I read somewhere but now cannot find) they waive the $200 stamp fee.

    What needs to happen but will not with the new administration is a repeal of NFA. Way to fuck the pooch on that, Trump-a-dump.
    Luckily my brace equipped pistol isn't an XCR. It's an AR configured 300BO. I wouldn't be surprised if Shockwaves and TAC-14 style firearms are next.
    A M16 is a fancy city girl, sexy as hell, but a bit moody. It's all good as long as you take her to the clubs and get what she asks. If you cross the? line, its over.

    An AK is a naughty girl, all in latex and with a whip begging you to be naughty. The nastier you are the happier she is. Its clear that she wont dump you, you'll have to do that on your own.
    The XCR is the perfect blend of both. Sexy as hell but willing to let you beat her and filthy her up and then beg for more.

  9. #8
    XCR Guru Sean K.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    AZ
    Posts
    21,932
    It should be noted I've only seen rumors the $200 stamp fee would be waived; nothing from ATF officially that I can see. Which means that may not be the case and with the dire straits of our economy, a new revenue stream for government taxes would be welcomed by the bureaucracy.
    "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human liberty. It is the argument of tyrants; the creed of slaves."-William Pitt the Younger

  10. #9
    XCR Guru Sean K.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    AZ
    Posts
    21,932
    Quote Originally Posted by SSBiggun View Post
    Luckily my brace equipped pistol isn't an XCR. It's an AR configured 300BO. I wouldn't be surprised if Shockwaves and TAC-14 style firearms are next.
    I'd guess you're right....and obviously, anyone who put a brace on those (or got a brace equipped Black Aces Tactical semi-auto) are now the proud owners of SBSs.
    "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human liberty. It is the argument of tyrants; the creed of slaves."-William Pitt the Younger

  11. #10
    XCR Guru Sean K.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    AZ
    Posts
    21,932
    The constructive possession thing is going to be difficult for ATF, I would think, if one owns NFA AR and XCR lowers. If you have extra stocks or braces laying around but also own AR/XCR pistols (assuming ATF doesn't auto-classify those as SBRs if they had a brace on them at some point...which is a pretty big assumption), I *don't believe* that would be constructive possession since you could be putting those on your registered lowers.

    Even if the assumption is wrong....and ATF auto-classifies those lowers as now SBRs, what happens if you own at least one NFA lower and simply take the shorter than 16" uppers off of the "pistol" lowers? Technically, if ATF rules those pistols are now rifles b/c they left the factory with braces, you could still mate them to 16" uppers. And the "pistol" uppers shorter than 16" would be available to swap onto your registered NFA lower.

    There are no rules saying you can't put a brace on a 16"+ bbl rifle....so technically, you could leave those braces on (though I agree....why not put a real stock on at that point since it will be mated to a 16" upper?).
    "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human liberty. It is the argument of tyrants; the creed of slaves."-William Pitt the Younger

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Sponsors

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •