Gun Ownership Discrimination (Long post)
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 25

Thread: Gun Ownership Discrimination (Long post)

  1. #1
    Marksman Prizm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    681

    Gun Ownership Discrimination (Long post)

    Over the past couple of days I've seen several news stories in my area involving guns/gun violence. I've also heard those that I work with talking about them in different capacities. Some people are for ownership, some not, some can't figure out why we as people even need them. None of them are experts and I never really talk about it with most of them. As these elections grow closer and as time goes on I worry more and more about our right to own and enjoy these wonderful devices. At some point, something's got to give... so what will it be?

    The other day a man drove into a gas station, in the middle of the day, in one of the most affluent areas of my city and shot a woman twice. She was pumping gas, she didn't know him. He shot at another person and missed. Then drove across the street and took his own life. Now I must note that he had a long history of schizophrenia, bipolar disorder and something else. And from what I understand he took the gun from his parents home. The indoor range that I shoot at was robbed a few nights ago. The thieves backed up a truck loaded up and were off. With them went many cheap revolvers and saturday night specials. They left the high-end customs and semi autos, but took the AK's and maybe a Barrett .50. The funny thing is a few days prior to this event I was there shooting. And upon leaving I passed by one of the cases and saw an AK with a very short barrel, pins through the back and it was being sold as a "pistol". I thought to myself that I would hate for that weapon to fall into the wrong hands. I mean, if you have a gun permit you can buy it, but because you have a permit doesn't necessarily make you smart enough to own it. I can just see someone carrying it around in their car because "they can", legally. Then something happens and they spray 7.62's all over the place endangering other's lives, causing damage, and further damaging the views on guns and gun ownership. Now that gun may be on the streets soon. What's amazing about that is if you or I had that weapon, and put a stock on it, it would be a federal violation... an SBR that is more concealable and thus a threat to everyone. But as a pistol, it's fine.

    My goal is not to pass judgement. It's only to look at the facts, the common sense facts that most of us who take this seriously, know. There are many idiots. There are many idiots that can legally own a gun. We've seen them at the shop, or at gun shows. Even at the range. Let's face it. There are many people that should not have guns based on the fact that they are idiots.

    So I wonder. No, in fact now more than ever I find myself thinking of a better way. I own several SBR's. I own a full auto. I own a suppressor. I've had to fill out paper work, file prints, sit with my local law enforcement leaders, pay the federal government and give them permission to basically walk into my home at any time.

    If it came down to it, how many of you would accept more stringent laws if it meant more scrutiny in acquiring them but it also meant that you could own the firearms you want without restriction? My friend and I always ask the question why can't guys like he and myself get NEW weapons that have a 2 or 3 round burst? Not a full-on auto, but burst... that makes sense. Do you know that that MP5 is really a $600 stamped receiver weapon? LEOs can get new HK UMPs for around $1,300. But an MP5 sells for $20,000 and up to good clean law abiding people willing to go through the process. (By the way I have a living trust now so the process is easier).

    What if a system was in place that was as efficient as it could be but you had to interview, then pay a fee, and go through training to obtain the firearms you love so much? Would it suck? Yeah probably. But I rest assured that not too many nut jobs are getting Class III weapons (legally). And last I heard there is only one record of a registered Class III owner committing a crime with such a weapon... ever (correct me if I'm wrong).

    Anyway, I try to make sense of all this in my head. But I know there is no sense to some of it. Just like banning weapons with folding stocks and flash-hiders or people thinking that a Tec-9 is more deadly than a Glock 19. I mean which one would you bet your life on? Oh yeah the Tec cause it "looks" deadly.

    How can we improve our situation and get closer to having these things when my kid's kids want to enjoy this activity? What are you willing to do? ???


  2. #2
    XCR Guru TerraShrewsbury's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Salt Lake City
    Posts
    5,177

    Re: Gun Ownership Discrimination (Long post)

    write a heartfelt article or two and send them in to your local newspaper. other people in other towns can do the same. a lot of papers print "opinion" sections, and anyone that reads the paper will see what you wrote. guns definitely have bad PR... and i think politics have a lot to do with it. everyone knows that the media and primary politicians work hand-in-hand... so if a certain politician is anti-gun, their media slaves will post anti-gun articles until the world stops turning. it sells papers, and helps their sales out. we live in the kind of world where people slow down around car wrecks to see if there's blood on the ground. people are mercenary and bloodthirsty... both in real life and in entertainment. bleh.
    Resident Forum Slut

  3. #3
    Expert TEXAS SOLFTAIL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Central,Texas
    Posts
    1,284

    Re: Gun Ownership Discrimination (Long post)

    Sounds like you are throwing in the towel. :'(

  4. Remove Advertisements
    XCRForum.com
    Advertisements
     

  5. #4
    Administrator admin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    1,045

    Re: Gun Ownership Discrimination (Long post)

    Nice post Prizm.

    I think it boils down to how much of your rights you're willing to give up to 'feel' safer. We all know that criminals will always have guns, whether they are banned or not. On the other hand I can see the argument that relaxing laws on the three-burst or full-auto guns may encourage more production of them, more stores selling them and thus more potential of them to be stolen. But you should consider all the massacres in recent years where lone gunmen with semi-auto firearms were able to take out a lot of people. I would also make the argument that a full auto in the hands of a stupid criminal is better than a semi-auto because with a full auto there will likely be a lot more spraying and missing than with a semi-auto (then again, i'm ignorant on the effectives of full auto).

    So, in the end, I don't think that there would be peace of mind in making guns harder to acquire because the folks with evil intentions will get them no matter how difficult it is for law abiding folks to get them.

    Now, law-abiding stupid folks is an interesting subject and one I haven't thought of much. Heh, I wish people weren't so careless and stupid but just as there will always be criminals there will also always be stupids.

    Although I would argue that if you want to do something to protect us from stupid people you should start by taking away their vehicles

    My point is that I don't think there is much that can be done to remedy this situation. The crux of the issue is that if you want to be free yourself you have to let other people be free too. We can try to keep psychos and criminals from keeping guns and while we may make slight progress I think in the end it will harm the normal folks more.

    Anyways, cars kill many more people than guns, so if anything we should start with cars.

    You'll have to pry the steering wheel out of my cold dead hands.

    :2cents:
    "Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination are omnipotent. The slogan press on has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race. No person was ever honored for what he received. Honor has been the reward for what he gave." -- John Calvin Coolidge

  6. #5
    Expert magikbullet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    1,475

    Re: Gun Ownership Discrimination (Long post)

    The only way to change the tide is arming yourself with knowledge (Lott's books would be a good start) and refuting the hysterical claims made by anti gun people. Their arguments are nearly always based on emotion and not facts. In the grand scheme of things, as Lex points out, there are far more dangerous things than guns. In Lott's 'The Bias Against Guns' he points out that among children under 12(I may need to recheck the age) more die drowning in 5 gallon buckets than are accidently killed by guns.

    I don't think its right to base your laws on the lowest common denominator, which are criminals in this case... we all know how ineffective the tens of thousands of gun laws we already have are, what difference would more make? Defaulting to more freedom is always the best option. There will always be stupid people, but basing laws on them has the overall net effect of restricting the greater number of sensible people (tough to qualify what makes stupid v sensible, but my view is positive overall )

    If we're talking mainly about nfa items, and how to make them more easily available to the good guys, we have a bit of a different case. To even people with neutral opinions of guns, who like most are completely uninformed, they represent the extreme, the peak of the 'what do you need that for' mindset. But explain that they are virtually never used in crime (and the one crime with fa you mention was by a policeman)... Present to them the obvious cases for suppressor use. Point out that they are far more than an 'assassin's tool.' Explain how gunfire indoors can be extremely damaging to hearing and night vision and how they can keep gun ranges from closing from noise complaints. In many european countries they're sold over the counter like car mufflers. Burst and full auto are harder to discuss, but their greater effectiveness as a serious defensive tool cannot be denied.

    The mention of defense is something that so many people have a hard time grasping. They've been conditioned for so long that the police will be there to save them, that they deny the reality they see on the news every night. When your life or property is on the line, the responsibility for them is yours! When the rubber meets the road, the police generally only come to mop up the aftermath :-[

  7. #6
    XCR Guru aziator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Southern AZ
    Posts
    6,835

    Re: Gun Ownership Discrimination (Long post)

    Take one trip on a Saturday to the local public range "overseen" by the DNR and you will see exactly why some people should not be allowed to posess firearms without training...
    Don't confuse enthusiasm for competence

    Want more grip for your M&P Pistol? Send me a message.

  8. #7
    Administrator admin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    1,045

    Re: Gun Ownership Discrimination (Long post)

    Quote Originally Posted by aziator View Post
    Take one trip on a Saturday to the local public range "overseen" by the DNR and you will see exactly why some people should not be allowed to posess firearms without training...
    All you have to do is get enough people to complain to the range owner and request that everyone who shoots at that range must pass some kind of training. I'm sure you can work something out without having to pass new laws, etc.

    And if the range owner doesn't agree but there is still a good number of people on your side then I guess you've got yourself a potential customer base and should open up your own gun range 8)
    "Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination are omnipotent. The slogan press on has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race. No person was ever honored for what he received. Honor has been the reward for what he gave." -- John Calvin Coolidge

  9. #8
    XCR Guru MickeyC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    6,517

    Re: Gun Ownership Discrimination (Long post)

    My take is simple. A law abiding resident or whatever should be allowed to possess any firearm they wish, machineguns included (Think of the sales tax on ammo).

    But:

    Each weapon should be registered in the same way we do cars. Each sale reported and registration transferred. (I don't intend to commit a crime so what's the harm)
    Firearms in the home, work or business should be secured. This stops crimminals from geting them and also childeren from having accidents. In the UK and New Zealand, all firearms in ranges and gun shops much be locked in a safe each night. The same for firearms in the home. Yes, it's anal, but it's also safe.
    Semper in excremento sum, solum profunditas mutat. 'Always in the shit, only the depth varies'

    The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.... Margaret Thatcher,

    Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest.
    Mahatma Gandhi

  10. #9
    Marksman va_plinker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    447

    Re: Gun Ownership Discrimination (Long post)

    I'd like to see something where you pass NFA and training and then are set free.

    Buy what you wish, travel anywere, etc.

    I have to triple check the car after a trip to the range. I can drive 10 miles into Maryland or 35 into DC and be in deep shit. Not that I'd forget a weapon :duh:, but more likely a round or mag could have been misplaced or slipped out. Ammo is illegal in DC, and your car is searched when trying to enter some of the parking garages. Not everyone is lucky enough to work for Senator Webb and get away with a mistake.

    I can't shoot after work because I can't have a weapon in my car in my office parking lot.

    The list goes on and on. I'm actually in one of the better states.

    Now if only I was a criminal I'd have no worries.

    So, I'd agree to something new if it would also set me free.

  11. #10
    Administrator admin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    1,045

    Re: Gun Ownership Discrimination (Long post)

    Quote Originally Posted by MickeyC View Post
    Each weapon should be registered in the same way we do cars. Each sale reported and registration transferred. (I don't intend to commit a crime so what's the harm)
    There are several problems with this:

    1. It won't do much, if anything at all, to reduce the availability of guns to criminals, in fact, it will likely increase the availability. See: War on Drugs.

    2. The harm is to everyone in the increase in taxes and spending to create this extra bureaucracy. A DMV like operation won't exactly be a cheap operation.

    3. For those that strictly interpret the constitution it's pretty obvious in there that the founders intended for us to be armed. Which to me would mean that the government should (passively) encourage people to own firearms and not discourage it by creating hoops to jump through. In my humble opinion the current background checks are as far as we should ever go in terms of checks. If you're not a criminal or a crazy, then you should be able to own a gun, no strings attached.

    4. Registration, especially most vehicle registrations, are annualized, this means that you would have to reregister your guns on a regular basis and if for whatever reason you can't afford to pay the registration fees for all the guns you will have to sell/give some/all of them up. Suddenly inheriting your grandfathers gun collection can become an expensive proposition. In the long run you would be destroying the American tradition of gun ownership. It'll be subtle, most people will be able to afford to own a few guns, sure, but I think many people will suddenly start to seriously consider if maybe they should reduce their gun collection. There are also many people who collect guns for their value, somewhat like an investment. So, in that case, it would be like if the government where to start requiring people to register their gold - it's a little stretch to make this point, but please consider it. If at first it'll be a one time registration, eventually it'll become a yearly thing.

    5. In politics, we always have more new laws pass than old laws repealed. So from a strategic point of view, if you were to try and pass this registration law while trying to make it easier to make people get three-burst, full auto, silencers, etc, what will most likely happen is that registration will become law but those other things will not be repealed. Experience shows us that the law books only ever get bigger, not smaller.

    Quote Originally Posted by MickeyC View Post
    Firearms in the home, work or business should be secured. This stops crimminals from geting them and also childeren from having accidents. In the UK and New Zealand, all firearms in ranges and gun shops much be locked in a safe each night. The same for firearms in the home. Yes, it's anal, but it's also safe.
    There are many places in America where people still keep a loaded shot gun by their bedside and have saved their own life and the lives of their loved ones by excercising this freedom. America is one of the few countries with places that have no restrictions on gun storage and no duty to retreat laws - You are the king of your own castle, so to speak. In the end this makes everyone safer. Criminals know to stay away from such towns because it's hazardous to their profession. You need less cops because there is less crime, which means more money can be put to fixing roads, etc.

    And regarding children, we need to first get rid of pools before we worry about guns.

    Regarding gunshops, it is sad that so many get robbed. There definitely needs to be more careful attention to security. For example the Washington DC sniper shooters shoplifted their guns in the middle of the day from a gun store in Washington. It boggles the mind how someone can walk into a gun store and steal a sniper rifle without anyone noticing! I don't think any law or regulation can prevent this kind of incompetence. As I said in my earlier post, there will always be stupid and careless people. Short of placing every American in a rubber bubble and preventing them from ever leaving their home, we'll just have to live with the consequences of being in a free society.

    "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin
    "Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination are omnipotent. The slogan press on has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race. No person was ever honored for what he received. Honor has been the reward for what he gave." -- John Calvin Coolidge

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Sponsors

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. History of Long Range Shooting in the USA (Long)
    By Sean K. in forum Politicking
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 11-16-2012, 02:20 PM
  2. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 11-22-2010, 12:38 PM
  3. Discrimination for equality
    By TexasChris in forum Politicking
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 05-16-2010, 10:59 AM
  4. Replies: 7
    Last Post: 06-30-2009, 10:27 AM
  5. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 01-15-2008, 10:15 AM