Great Article- "I'm Tired" By 63 Year Old US Senator and USMC Vet
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Thread: Great Article- "I'm Tired" By 63 Year Old US Senator and USMC Vet

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    Marksman acco's Avatar
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    Great Article- "I'm Tired" By 63 Year Old US Senator and USMC Vet

    I couldn't find this article on the forum so I don't think it's a repost. You might have recieved it as an email forward in edited versions, but this is the original. It obviously has been updated by the author since the original writing to make his intent clearer.

    http://tartanmarine.blogspot.com/2009/02/robert.html

    Excerpt- "I’m tired of being told that Islam is a “Religion of Peace,” when every day I can read dozens of stories of Muslim men killing their sisters, wives and daughters for their family “honor;” of Muslims rioting over some slight offense; of Muslims murdering Christian and Jews because they aren’t “believers;” of Muslims burning schools for girls; of Muslims stoning teenage rape victims to death for “adultery;” of Muslims mutilating the genitals of little girls; all in the name of Allah, because the Qur’an and Shari’a law tells them to.

    I’m tired of latte liberals and journalists, who would never wear the uniform of the Republic themselves, or let their entitlement-handicapped kids near a recruiting station, trashing our military. They and their kids can sit at home, never having to make split-second decisions under life and death circumstances, and bad mouth better people then themselves. Do bad things happen in war? You bet. Do our troops sometimes misbehave? Sure. Does this compare with the atrocities that were the policy of our enemies for the last fifty years—and still are? Not even close. So here’s the deal. I’ll let myself be subjected to all the humiliation and abuse that was heaped on terrorists at Abu Ghraib or Gitmo, and the critics can let themselves be subject to captivity by the Muslims who tortured and beheaded Daniel Pearl in Pakistan, or the Muslims who tortured and murdered Marine Lt. Col. William Higgins in Lebanon, or the Muslims who ran the blood-spattered Al Qaeda torture rooms our troops found in Iraq, or the Muslims who cut off the heads of schoolgirls in Indonesia, because the girls were Christian. Then we’ll compare notes. British and American soldiers are the only troops in history that civilians came to for help and handouts, instead of hiding from in fear. UPDATE: It has rightly been pointed out to me, several times, that I should have included Canadian, Australian and New Zealand troops here. My apologies for slighting these gallant allies of freedom.


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    Expert jrsweb's Avatar
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    Re: Great Article- "I'm Tired" By 63 Year Old US Senator and USMC Vet

    :clap:
    Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery - Churchill

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    XCR Guru MickeyC's Avatar
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    Re: Great Article- "I'm Tired" By 63 Year Old US Senator and USMC Vet

    Good words
    Semper in excremento sum, solum profunditas mutat. 'Always in the shit, only the depth varies'

    The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.... Margaret Thatcher,

    Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest.
    Mahatma Gandhi

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    tk
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    Re: Great Article- "I'm Tired" By 63 Year Old US Senator and USMC Vet

    He's right: Terrible things happen in war, which is what makes war something to be avoided in all but the direst of situations.

    But he's wrong on a couple of counts.

    First, the well-documented abuses at Abu Ghraib and the darker prisons we used across the world were not the result of our troops misbehaving, but of official US policy that determined that torture was acceptable.

    Second, we all realize that some of our enemies have embraced a primitive, uncivilized, murderous worldview, that is more compatible with life in the stone age than the space age. But our society is supposed to be built upon principles that raise us far above that.

    tk
    The Second Amendment is a doomsday provision, one designed for those exceptionally rare circumstances where all other rights have failed -- where the government refuses to stand for re-election and silences those who protest; where courts have lost the courage to oppose, or can find no one to enforce their decrees. However improbable these contingencies may seem today, facing them unprepared is a mistake free people get to make only once." Judge Alex Kozinski, 9th District

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    Marksman acco's Avatar
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    Re: Great Article- "I'm Tired" By 63 Year Old US Senator and USMC Vet

    Bullshit.

    The public humiliation and sexualized shaming of persons ON CAMERA was NEVER an official policy. Yes there were "enhanced" interrogation techniques used, and some of them can be argued to be illegal or unnecessary "torture"- but the Abu Ghraib reference he is using is about sadists smiling and publicly humiliating persons and abusing them only for their own pleasure, not as part of actual interrogations.

    I am not saying that abuses don't occur, and that some official policies aren't wrong, I am saying that his reference is to the islamic world using the illegal actions (for which there were prosecutions and jail times) of a very few soldiers as an excuse for mass murder and bombings, and targeted attacks on non-combatants etc.

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    tk
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    Re: Great Article- "I'm Tired" By 63 Year Old US Senator and USMC Vet

    Quote Originally Posted by acco View Post
    Bullshit.

    The public humiliation and sexualized shaming of persons ON CAMERA was NEVER an official policy. Yes there were "enhanced" interrogation techniques used, and some of them can be argued to be illegal or unnecessary "torture"- but the Abu Ghraib reference he is using is about sadists smiling and publicly humiliating persons and abusing them only for their own pleasure, not as part of actual interrogations.

    I am not saying that abuses don't occur, and that some official policies aren't wrong, I am saying that his reference is to the islamic world using the illegal actions (for which there were prosecutions and jail times) of a very few soldiers as an excuse for mass murder and bombings, and targeted attacks on non-combatants etc.
    First, most of the abuses the author cites were/are not in response to Abu Ghraib -- they are simply the result of the primitive world view of the actors.

    As to Abu Ghraib, I'm not suggesting that rape was ever an official US policy. But I also don't think you can really separate the "official" abuse from the "unofficial" abuse.

    I've read the memos (at least those that were made public), listened to the testimony from the Congressional hearings, and have read the interviews with the people who were the architects of the official policies. The "unofficial" acts of humiliation and abuse were occurring in the wake of "official" acts of humiliation and abuse. You can;t create an environment where people are "officially" tortured and abused in one room and then expect the staff to treat them humanely in another room.

    The memos written by Jay Bybee and John Yoo that authorized the "official abuse" determined that anything short of abuse that caused "organ failure" or death could not be considered torture, and that even torture could be justified under the president's wartime powers. In other words, there were few, if any, real restrictions on the official interrogators. And need I point out that some members of Congress essentially applauded?

    Other memos specifically stated that religious and sexual humiliation would be effective tactics when "interrogating" captured Muslims. Although 17 servicemen and women were eventually tried for the abuses, it's clear from the records that it was far more pervasive than that, and that the "official" interrogators knew about at least some of the "unofficial" abuse -- and tacitly approved it. The prison was run by the regular military authorities, but much of the interrogation was being conducted by spooks who came and went without oversight.

    The official policy was to dehumanize, humiliate and terrorize the detainees. Can anyone be surprised that extending those policies became sport?

    tk
    The Second Amendment is a doomsday provision, one designed for those exceptionally rare circumstances where all other rights have failed -- where the government refuses to stand for re-election and silences those who protest; where courts have lost the courage to oppose, or can find no one to enforce their decrees. However improbable these contingencies may seem today, facing them unprepared is a mistake free people get to make only once." Judge Alex Kozinski, 9th District

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    Marksman acco's Avatar
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    Re: Great Article- "I'm Tired" By 63 Year Old US Senator and USMC Vet

    I am not arguing that something went terribly wrong. But the fact is that the anger over what happened at Abu Ghraib is directly relateda to the photos of abuse for fun taken by soldiers outside of anything authorized to gain information. Yes I can be "suprised that it became sport". I am a professional Canadian Combat Arms Soldier. I have served a lot of time overseas. It is "official policy" to shoot and kill foreigners in their country if we can justify it as a direct response to hostile actions. It has NEVER "become sport" to shoot people for fun, even if they are suspected of guilt. It's call discipline. It is NOT "someone else's fault". The fault does however lie with lack of supervision. Enhanced techniques were authorized for specific persons with a direct intent to gain specific information during a planned and co-ordinated interrogation. Group humiliation is not a part of interrogations, group activities strengthen resolve. That is why everyone from the police to the military separate persons during interrogations, and they do not take smiling photographs.

    Back to the original post, the argument being made is that radical islamists committed atrocities before, during, and after any abuses by coalition troops- and their claims that any actions they take are only in response to those abuses is complete bullshit.

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    tk
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    Re: Great Article- "I'm Tired" By 63 Year Old US Senator and USMC Vet

    Quote Originally Posted by acco View Post
    ...
    Back to the original post, the argument being made is that radical islamists committed atrocities before, during, and after any abuses by coalition troops- and their claims that any actions they take are only in response to those abuses is complete bullshit.
    I absolutely agree. While there are "modern" Muslims living in major cities all over the world, we're talking about a group that has embraced a world view that condones mass murder of the innocent, the exploitation of children, and ruthless violence to control women.

    I mean no disrespect to anyone in uniform. I see what happened at Abu Ghraib as the forseeable consequence of a massive failure of civilian leadership. I'm not excusing those in uniform that participated -- but I'm angry that none of the civilian leaders have been called to account.

    tk



    The Second Amendment is a doomsday provision, one designed for those exceptionally rare circumstances where all other rights have failed -- where the government refuses to stand for re-election and silences those who protest; where courts have lost the courage to oppose, or can find no one to enforce their decrees. However improbable these contingencies may seem today, facing them unprepared is a mistake free people get to make only once." Judge Alex Kozinski, 9th District

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