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Failure to eject

8K views 62 replies 8 participants last post by  Rob 
#1 ·
I went to the range tonight, gas turned up to 4, shooting Brown Bear. Had 2 jams in 210 rounds.

Both failures were the same issue. Shot fired, case was pulled out of the chamber, but did not eject fully, next round came in and was wedged under the spent casing causing a jam. I was using 30 round pmags, and the first jam was during the 4th mag, and the second during the 6th.

I really want to make this gun work, as I do think it is great, but I need to be able to shoot cheap ammo reliably if I'm gonna keep it and have fun.

Any thoughts out there?
 
#3 ·
You may find the steel case ammo does this.
But it absolutely should not. If the gun is built properly and in spec, it should run steel case with no issues.


Rob,
Did you clean it before shooting as I suggested in the other thread?

What did the spent cases look like? Were the rims chewed up at all (perhaps showing difficult extraction)?

Theoretically, if the spent case was pulled from the chamber, it shouldn't have had problems getting out of the ejection port, unless there's something wrong with your fixed ejector.

Did you look the ejector over? When you cycle the gun by hand, does the bolt move smoothly as the ejector goes into the groove in the bolt? It may be that the ejector is not lined up properly and is dragging but I find that unlikely as it would be causing problems more often than once every 100 or so rounds. If there is drag, loosen up the two bolts holding the ejector, and align them to the groove in the bolt to ensure that it's not dragging when the gun cycles then re-tighten them....but don't over do it as you can strip or break them. If the bolt cycles without dragging, don't loosen the 2 ejector bolts....there's no need and you'll break the loc-tite they use to secure the bolts at the factory.

Beyond that, the only other thing I can think of is a fairly common 'tight chamber' that could be causing the case to hang up enough to loose momentum on the way out of the chamber. Again, if you're only having a few failures, it's only marginally too tight. A 400 grit flex hone is the cure for that one....assuming that's the problem. If I had to guess based on your symptoms....I'd say a tight chamber is likely your problem.

The only thing left after those to fixes is to start looking at your port sizes in the gas system. Do you have a machinist's drill bit set by chance? It will help with diagnosing the port sizes in the dial as well as the bbl.

Sean
 
#4 ·
More advice from another thread:

Clean/lube the weapon thoroughly.....make sure the gas dial holes are all opened up. You can use a needle or pick to clear out the holes. Use a 9mm or .40 cal brush to clean the chamber (if you don't have a fancy AR chamber brush).....make sure it's scrubbed clean. I usually use Hoppes No. 9 for the chamber when it's filthy.

Disassemble upper from lower; flip the upper upside down and lay it on a table. Pull on the recoil spring assembly latch. Does the carrier/op rod/bolt/recoil spring assembly slide all the way out of the upper without hanging up or meeting resistance? Report back. If it hangs up and the recoil spring pulls out of the op rod before the carrier/bolt are clear of the upper....you likely have a crooked op rod foot which can lead to short stroking. (I'm just trying to eliminate variables with this test). If it's welded on crooked, you'll need a new one from RA under warranty.


Post the results to make sure that the op rod/spring assembly isn't welded crooked.


HTH,
Sean
 
#5 ·
I didn't noticed the rims looking chewed up.

I had done a cursory cleaning before heading to the range. The gun arrived unclean, and I didn't take the time to get it really clean. I have no idea how many rounds since the last cleaning. I have run over 500, the original owner claimed to clean it regularly and that it had a low count.

I spent 3.5 hours cleaning it tonight. This seems like a long time. There is still some carbon residue baked on the chrome rod. I got most of it. Scraped it for over an hour with a brass pick/toothbrush/cotton cloths with Hoppes #9. Scrubbed the chamber with the fancy chamber brush. Got my hand in there with a rag on my pinky and some more Hoppes #9 and really cleaned it out before and after the scrubbing. It's as clean as I can imagine getting it. It is really tough to get in there. Any recommendations on what to swab it with after scrubbing with the receiver brush? It's really hard to see in there, and tough to reach. THis seems like a real nuisance for regular cleaning.

Cleaned every moving part thoroughly, and lubed it. Probably over lubed it, but this should just burn off, right? I assume routine cleaning will go much faster after I get this thing really clean, right? I don't think I really want to have to spend this much time cleaning it after every usage. I must have run over 100 patches through the barrel, and have run the bore snake through several times, and it is still not passing them totally clean. It is pretty close.

I had a difficult time cleaning the inside of the upper receiver as well. Ant suggestions here? There is probably something else about htis in another thread, I'll go looking for it after I've slept.

I've asked ace to extend my trial period. I really like the gun, and want to get it to work. If he agrees, I'll check the gas ports to at least make sure they are clean.

This thing spits the expelled cases pretty far. It was throwing them about 20 feet with the gas set at 3. At the indoor range on 4 I had the divider between shooting lanes, but it seems to spit them at 3 o'clock, not forward at all. I had one bounce of the divider and hit me in the mouth and stuck between my lips momentarily before I spit it away. It kinda hurts now. Minor burn.

If I need to hone the chamber, should I have my local gunsmith do this? Send it to Robinson? I am really interested in trying to make this thing work for me, as I really like it. It is super comfortable, and I love the ergonomics of the controls. I just want to make it reliable while shooting cheap ammo.

Does the carrier/op rod/bolt/recoil spring assembly slide all the way out of the upper without hanging up or meeting resistance?

Yes, this seems to slide out effortlessly, and back in just as easy.

The spring was filthy. How do I clean under the spring? Do I need to disassemble the piece and remove the spring?

Thanks for all the help so far. I really hope I can get this working for me.
 
#6 ·
It's great that you got it that clean.....as we needed it to be fairly clean to get a baseline. However, you should NEVER have to spend that much time cleaning it again....EVER. ;D

Tips for cleaning:

Let the Hoppes#9 soak....let it do the work for you.

Use the chamber brush to knock the major residue out of the chamber (this can be accomplished with the chamber brush you have or a 9mm or .40 cal. brush as well....you're just looking for a fairly good snug fit so that the brush is about the size of the chamber itself). Use a twisting motion to break any gunk loose and use Hoppes first and let it soak for several minutes to loosen the debris before using the brush. Then use some dry patches to get out the gunk, followed by an oiled patch for lube, followed by another dry patch to clean out the residual lubricant.


You don't need the bbl extension to be spotless (just fairly clean and free of small chips of brass/steel from spent cases and larger chunks of powder residue) for regular cleaning....some people do this, but it's really not necessary for reliable function. Pulling the bbl out of the rifle makes it super simple to clean the bbl and extension....again, I don't this often b/c one, I don't think the receiver/helicoil and bolt hold up well to be torqued/re-torqued all the time and two, I've found that the rifle doesn't not always return to zero after you pull the bbl and reinstall it....meaning you'll have to re-zero when you do this. That is not practical for every time you clean the gun.

When you say you lubed every moving part.....hopefully you also ran a dry patch through the chamber. You don't want excessive lube in the chamber as it *can* cause overpressure issues (however unlikely).

Further, there seems to be argument about lubing the piston. I lube the oprod very lightly and have lubed the piston in the past....it doesn't seem to make clean up any easier as carbon is going to bake on the piston head and the dial regardless. The key here is to make sure the dial's ports are all open and clear of carbon debris. I don't lube the trigger group or really anything in the lower. I do occasionally blow out the trigger group with compressed air or hit the disconnector spring with a little gun grease like TW25 or similar. I basically just lightly lube the carrier and the bbl. Too much lube will attract spent powder, dirt, etc.

As for lube itself, CLP works....but IMO, Mobil 1 or another full synthetic motor oil works better and is easier to clean off.

Cleaning the upper receiver....I wouldn't spend a lot of time on this unless it's filthy. A paper towel or cotton rag works fine for this. No need to get crazy with it. Some guys use a shotgun bbl "mop" for this....I don't see the need frankly but whatever floats your boat.

If you haven't done the two things in bold....do them before going to the range again. They are more critical than anything else based on your symptoms.

Even if Ace doesn't agree to extend your warranty (no offense, but at this point, I wouldn't be warrantying anything either if this is the first time you've contacted him since receiving the rifle)....if you're going to keep it or even sell it....you need to get it running...so clean the gas ports in the dial. We'll worry about the bbl port later if the other things don't fix the problem.

If you have a variable speed drill that runs at around 1250 RPM, you DO NOT need to send it to anyone....you can do it yourself. I'd send you my flex hone, but it's now pretty well worn out after doing something like 6 chambers.

If you need to order a hone, here's the link:

http://brushresearch.com/brushes.php?c2=183

You'll need to select "5.56 NATO" out of the first drop down menu.

Then choose the abrasive "silicon carbide (SC)" in the next drop down.

Then "400" grit in the last drop down.

You can buy their flex hone oil or just use a good quality one like a full synthetic motor oil or even mineral oil.

The brush and shipping should run about $40. 1/2 pint of flex hone oil is another $8.85.

Here's how to use the flex hone: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTqHQ5b4FAU&feature=player_embedded

I remove the bbl from the gun when I hone it. I run a patch on a cleaning rod (with no handle) up the bbl to the chamber from the muzzle end and leave it in the bbl to keep debris from getting down into the bbl while I hone the chamber. Once I finish honing the chamber, I push the cleaning rod and patch out of the bbl assembly through the chamber (assuming you didn't attach the handle). Then I rinse the bbl out with hot, soapy water and dry it off with compressed air before lubing the bbl and chamber and running a dry patch through as the finishing step.

If we need to open gas ports....do you have a drill press? (I should mention that I do NOT think this will be necessary....I'm guessing you have a tight chamber and flex honing it will solve the problem completely). If not, you're either going to have to send it to a smith or to RA....or I might be able to do it for you....but you'll have to pay shipping both ways and you're voiding your warranty. However, as messed up as RA's quality control is, they've sent out wrong sized ports in the past so I'm not sure how they would tell. My advice: don't lie about it. Take ownership for trying to get the gun running....if RA wants to take care of you they will (in other words, if they deem you worthy); if they don't, they won't.

You could ship it off to RA before honing the chamber, but IME, it is HIGHLY likely that your gun will come back several months later and work no better than when it left. What they'll do is sloppily hone the chamber, test fire 10 rounds through it and say it's fixed. Problem is, you're having failures at 100 rounds or more in....they aren't going to spend the time or money on ammo/hourly rate to make sure it's working.

The flipped upside down test seems to say that the op rod foot is not welded crooked....that's a good thing.

Cleaning the spring is best done with compressed air to get the major debris out/off. I don't do much besides just wiping it down honestly. Compressed air is nice (assuming you have an air compressor) for cleaning a lot of things.

HTH,
Sean
 
#7 ·
One other thing.....check to make sure your gas block is tight and seated correctly.

There's a little allen head bolt in the bottom of the gas block (the block is what the gas dial goes into). Make sure that bolt is tight.

Sean
 
#8 ·
Ace and I have been in contact about this, and he has been willing to take it back along the way. I have been reporting to him directly as I've been going.

That said, I don't want to send it back. I like it, I just want it to work.

Yesterday was the end of my 7 day trial.

I'll try to digest the rest of your post and figure stuff out.

Based on my reports, would you say I am looking at a keeper? He specifically gave me the 7 day evaluation to be sure it would fire cheap ammo reliably. It does not. I am willing to do the work you mentioned to make it good, but don't want this to turn into a situation where I find out that I should have just sent it back and no longer can.
Any advice on risk mitigation here is appreciated.
 
#9 ·
I can't really tell you what to do here. It's up to you. IMO, you can fix the weapon....but that's based on fixing 3 of mine that had far worse problems than yours seems to exhibit. That said, when I don't know exactly what's wrong with yours....it's hard to say for sure that we can fix it.

You could rely on RA's warranty....but frankly, I wouldn't (again, based on my experience with them).

There are XCRs that run on cheap ammo reliably from the factory. However, the more people I talk to that actually own an XCR....the more I see with the exact same problems. I believe the failure rate with steel cased ammo is far higher than what most people wish to acknowledge. Again, I think it comes back to fewer people run steel cased ammo through a $1600+ gun and fewer people actually shoot the guns a lot and are sure they function once they get a little dirty.

If you send this one back and buy a new one...you could have exactly the same problem. If you buy another used one, you have to wonder if the person is selling b/c it doesn't run 100% with all ammo types.

My suggestion (don't take it as gospel) is that you keep this one and fix it.....IF you want an XCR. I don't see any really good probability that you'll get another one that runs any better if you buy a used one (or a new one for that matter). From what I can tell, it seems like you're on the cusp of having a reliable XCR....it just needs the chamber honed to get it to run 100%....but I'm merely guessing at this point.

Ultimately, it has to be your decision. Maybe you get Ace to extend the warranty another week? Problem is, he won't likely be willing to let you modify the chamber via a flex hone if you may be sending it back considering RA will supposedly void the warranty if you flex hone the chamber (though I do question how they'd know if you didn't have an ethical problem with not telling them).

If, OTOH, you're not sure you want an XCR.....a SCAR or ACR might be a better choice in terms of getting a "next generation" carbine that runs from the factory....though you are looking at substantially more money for either. Another option is a good, basic DI AR (like a Noveske for a high end, Bravo Company or even the lower end brands tend to run just fine) or a piston AR like the PWS, LWRC, etc. (though an LWRC is going to be around the price of an ACR).

Like most things in life, it just depends. Sorry I can't be more help.

Think it through, but ultimately, go with your gut.

HTH,
Sean
 
#10 ·
BTW, have you gotten your MSAR yet?

Curious how it runs on Brown Bear.....and how you like it overall compared to the AK you've shot, and the XCR.

Sean
 
#11 ·
I didn't noticed the rims looking chewed up.

I had done a cursory cleaning before heading to the range. The gun arrived unclean, and I didn't take the time to get it really clean. I have no idea how many rounds since the last cleaning. I have run over 500, the original owner claimed to clean it regularly and that it had a low count.
If it didn’t reach your hands clean and you ran over 500 of steel case, I suspect a cleaning will get you running right again. Which apparently you have done:
I spent 3.5 hours cleaning it tonight. This seems like a long time. There is still some carbon residue baked on the chrome rod. I got most of it. Scraped it for over an hour with a brass pick/toothbrush/cotton cloths with Hoppes #9. Scrubbed the chamber with the fancy chamber brush. Got my hand in there with a rag on my pinky and some more Hoppes #9 and really cleaned it out before and after the scrubbing. It's as clean as I can imagine getting it. It is really tough to get in there. Any recommendations on what to swab it with after scrubbing with the receiver brush? It's really hard to see in there, and tough to reach. THis seems like a real nuisance for regular cleaning.

The piston is a real SOB to get clean. Frankly, I’ve stopped bothering to get all of the caked on carbon off. I get off what I can with a reasonable amount of effort and let the rest sit. IIRC, EC has said that Mobil-1 as a lube has decreased the amount of stuck on build-up he gets, but it didn’t sound like it was completely eliminated.

The chamber brush is probably what I find to be the most important thing when shooting steel cased ammo. If you’re not aware, steel doesn’t expand the way brass does, so the chamber doesn’t necessarily get sealed by the case, so gun powder residue gets deposited in the chamber. Supposedly, with steel, in addition to not expanding much, also doesn’t contract afterwards, as brass does. Some feel Flex Hone is a great way to prevent this…I’m not so sold. I suppose smoothing out any tool marks would help to prevent build-ups, but if you had a tight chamber, I’d suspect you’d have a lot more failures than 2 in 210. Personally, I just make sure I spin my chamber brush around a couple times after each range session with steel. And yeah, the extension makes cleaning the barrel a pain. After the chamber brush, I use a .40 cal mop attachment to get out any loosened debris from the chamber. For the extension itself, I use baby Q-tips. They have an extra large bulb to prevent them from going too deep into babies’ ears, which helps to get in all the nooks and crannies of the extension.

Cleaned every moving part thoroughly, and lubed it. Probably over lubed it, but this should just burn off, right? I assume routine cleaning will go much faster after I get this thing really clean, right? I don't think I really want to have to spend this much time cleaning it after every usage. I must have run over 100 patches through the barrel, and have run the bore snake through several times, and it is still not passing them totally clean. It is pretty close.

I’m a believer that the only time you can overlube a firearm is when it’s your carry piece that’s staining your clothes. When I was breaking in my XCR, I had oil seeping out between the receivers. Got it to the point where I feel I have more than enough lube without it seeping out now. Another plug for EC (Eric Cartmann, BTW), he swears by Mobil-1 requiring just a wipe down and reapply. I actually kind of like doing detailed cleaning, so I haven’t gone this route yet.

I had a difficult time cleaning the inside of the upper receiver as well. Ant suggestions here? There is probably something else about htis in another thread, I'll go looking for it after I've slept.

Can’t say I’ve found an easy way to clean the upper either. I’ve tried .45 jags and lotsa patches to make it tighter, but nothing I’ve found is ideal. At the same time, I’ve never really found the upper to need much cleaning.

I've asked ace to extend my trial period. I really like the gun, and want to get it to work. If he agrees, I'll check the gas ports to at least make sure they are clean.
When you take off the gas dial for cleaning (which is a must IMO!), make sure you get the dial back on and seated in a position correctly (and give it a tug to make sure it doesn’t come off). Some people have had the unfortunate experience of making a mistake and firing their gas dial downrange. Both embarrassing and hard to find, I’m sure.


This thing spits the expelled cases pretty far. It was throwing them about 20 feet with the gas set at 3. At the indoor range on 4 I had the divider between shooting lanes, but it seems to spit them at 3 o'clock, not forward at all. I had one bounce of the divider and hit me in the mouth and stuck between my lips momentarily before I spit it away. It kinda hurts now. Minor burn.

If you’re spitting most steel cases 20 feet on 3, I suspect you’ve got a pretty fine rifle. If you’re not getting ejection to 2 o’clock, it’s possible the 7.62x39 brass deflector got on there accidentally.

If I need to hone the chamber, should I have my local gunsmith do this? Send it to Robinson? I am really interested in trying to make this thing work for me, as I really like it. It is super comfortable, and I love the ergonomics of the controls. I just want to make it reliable while shooting cheap ammo.

Again, Flex Hone is up to you. If you think taking care with the chamber is too much work, maybe give it a try. If you’re handy, I’m sure you could do it yourself. If you don’t mind spending a little bit of money, have a good smith do it. Talk to Aziator and SeanK about Flex Hone, they’d know much more than I would.
As for being reliable with cheap ammo, well, that’s a gray area. What is acceptable reliability to you? 10K rounds of Wolf BB without a clean or lube and no failures? I think that’s unrealistic. Cheap ammo is cheap because it’s unreliable. I’m willing to deal with the potential problems of steel cased ammo at the range, in exchange for the low cost. If I was concerned about having 0 failures, I’d use brass. If you have problems with brass, then I’d be looking at tight chamber, gas ports out of spec, bent op rods, etc.. I did a tactical rifle class earlier this year, shooting Wolf MC. I made sure my rifle was clean beforehand. I also brought my 7.62x39 conversion with brass cased rounds in case I had a problem. I didn’t, but I was aware that the potential was much greater using Wolf MC instead of something like XM193.


Does the carrier/op rod/bolt/recoil spring assembly slide all the way out of the upper without hanging up or meeting resistance?

Yes, this seems to slide out effortlessly, and back in just as easy.

The spring was filthy. How do I clean under the spring? Do I need to disassemble the piece and remove the spring?

IIRC, the spring does come apart, but someone that did it had parts fly. So be careful. I’ve never found it necessary. I just use a shop towel (the blue paper towels) and some solvent to wipe it down.

Thanks for all the help so far. I really hope I can get this working for me.
If you want to make sure the rifle is a good one, run brass through it for 500 or so rounds. If you don’t have any failures, I’d say you have a fine rifle. I don’t expect any rifle to be 100% reliable with steel ammo. 2 failures in 210 rounds is a little much....but if the rifle hadn't been cleaned before that, it wasn't 2 in 210.

I just want to add two other things.

First, I am not, nor do I claim to be an expert with firearms or the XCR. Anything I’ve said is simply based on my gleaned knowledge and experience, and could be wrong. As they say, it’s my advice and worth what you paid for it.

Second, kudos to Ace for being so accommodating. 7 days, with firing allowed is unheard of to me. 3 day, visual inspection, no firing is standard. That’s really outstanding of him, don’t take that for granted.
 
#12 ·
If it didn’t reach your hands clean and you ran over 500 of steel case, I suspect a cleaning will get you running right again. Which apparently you have done:

The piston is a real SOB to get clean. Frankly, I’ve stopped bothering to get all of the caked on carbon off. I get off what I can with a reasonable amount of effort and let the rest sit. IIRC, EC has said that Mobil-1 as a lube has decreased the amount of stuck on build-up he gets, but it didn’t sound like it was completely eliminated.

The chamber brush is probably what I find to be the most important thing when shooting steel cased ammo. If you’re not aware, steel doesn’t expand the way brass does, so the chamber doesn’t necessarily get sealed by the case, so gun powder residue gets deposited in the chamber. Supposedly, with steel, in addition to not expanding much, also doesn’t contract afterwards, as brass does. Some feel Flex Hone is a great way to prevent this…I’m not so sold. I suppose smoothing out any tool marks would help to prevent build-ups, but if you had a tight chamber, I’d suspect you’d have a lot more failures than 2 in 210. Personally, I just make sure I spin my chamber brush around a couple times after each range session with steel. And yeah, the extension makes cleaning the barrel a pain. After the chamber brush, I use a .40 cal mop attachment to get out any loosened debris from the chamber. For the extension itself, I use baby Q-tips. They have an extra large bulb to prevent them from going too deep into babies’ ears, which helps to get in all the nooks and crannies of the extension.

I’m a believer that the only time you can overlube a firearm is when it’s your carry piece that’s staining your clothes. When I was breaking in my XCR, I had oil seeping out between the receivers. Got it to the point where I feel I have more than enough lube without it seeping out now. Another plug for EC (Eric Cartmann, BTW), he swears by Mobil-1 requiring just a wipe down and reapply. I actually kind of like doing detailed cleaning, so I haven’t gone this route yet.

Can’t say I’ve found an easy way to clean the upper either. I’ve tried .45 jags and lotsa patches to make it tighter, but nothing I’ve found is ideal. At the same time, I’ve never really found the upper to need much cleaning.

When you take off the gas dial for cleaning (which is a must IMO!), make sure you get the dial back on and seated in a position correctly (and give it a tug to make sure it doesn’t come off). Some people have had the unfortunate experience of making a mistake and firing their gas dial downrange. Both embarrassing and hard to find, I’m sure.

If you’re spitting most steel cases 20 feet on 3, I suspect you’ve got a pretty fine rifle. If you’re not getting ejection to 2 o’clock, it’s possible the 7.62x39 brass deflector got on there accidentally.

Again, Flex Hone is up to you. If you think taking care with the chamber is too much work, maybe give it a try. If you’re handy, I’m sure you could do it yourself. If you don’t mind spending a little bit of money, have a good smith do it. Talk to Aziator and SeanK about Flex Hone, they’d know much more than I would.
As for being reliable with cheap ammo, well, that’s a gray area. What is acceptable reliability to you? 10K rounds of Wolf BB without a clean or lube and no failures? I think that’s unrealistic. Cheap ammo is cheap because it’s unreliable. I’m willing to deal with the potential problems of steel cased ammo at the range, in exchange for the low cost. If I was concerned about having 0 failures, I’d use brass. If you have problems with brass, then I’d be looking at tight chamber, gas ports out of spec, bent op rods, etc.. I did a tactical rifle class earlier this year, shooting Wolf MC. I made sure my rifle was clean beforehand. I also brought my 7.62x39 conversion with brass cased rounds in case I had a problem. I didn’t, but I was aware that the potential was much greater using Wolf MC instead of something like XM193.

IIRC, the spring does come apart, but someone that did it had parts fly. So be careful. I’ve never found it necessary. I just use a shop towel (the blue paper towels) and some solvent to wipe it down.

If you want to make sure the rifle is a good one, run brass through it for 500 or so rounds. If you don’t have any failures, I’d say you have a fine rifle. I don’t expect any rifle to be 100% reliable with steel ammo. 2 failures in 210 rounds is a little much....but if the rifle hadn't been cleaned before that, it wasn't 2 in 210.

I just want to add two other things.

First, I am not, nor do I claim to be an expert with firearms or the XCR. Anything I’ve said is simply based on my gleaned knowledge and experience, and could be wrong. As they say, it’s my advice and worth what you paid for it.

Second, kudos to Ace for being so accommodating. 7 days, with firing allowed is unheard of to me. 3 day, visual inspection, no firing is standard. That’s really outstanding of him, don’t take that for granted.
I should preface this to say it's not a personal attack on BC.....I simply don't agree with him and I believe he's coming at it from his own experience and I have experience that differs in terms of the reliability. I think it also depends on how many failures one is willing to live with and call a platform reliable. I admittedly am biased in that I want close to the same reliability from my long arms that I get from my pistols....and I have had OUTSTANDING reliability from my HKs, Glocks, XDs, etc. Unfortunately, that standard is hard to reach with a lot of long arms (especially in semi auto mag fed rifles). Nothing wrong with BC being okay with a few failures here and there.....I think it's a genuine difference of opinion as to what is acceptable. All things being equal though....I think most would agree: the more reliability; the better.

Reference for my first statement below from this thread: http://xcrforum.com/index.php/topic,11130.0.html (emphasis added by me)

Outside of initial break-in with XM193, I've shot almost exclusively Wolf MC. I've also shot some Brown Bear, PRVI and PMC (JHP, Soft-Point, and Steel Core).
Can’t really compare to the Bear directly…only fired 10 rounds of the defensive ammo to ensure proper cycling. I can tell you that Wolf MC is dirty. I cleaned the XCR before this course but not after. Took it out this past Saturday to practice malfunction drills (since we didn’t in the class) and had 2 cases get stuck from the chamber being dirty. The extractor pulled the rim apart, so mortaring/pogoing didn’t work…had to use a rod. Cleaned up the chamber with a brush and had no other problems. That ties right into reliability…it’s only as reliable as your rifle is clean.


BC's gun isn't 100% reliable with steel case (though he's got me on ignore so he never answered my question about round count in the above linked thread: reply #10), so he assumes it's normal for XCRs to not run 100% on steel case. RobArms touts the XCR's ability to run cheap, steel cased ammo 100% (though IIRC he did back off on Wolf and instead recommended Barnaul).....If it doesn't, that's fine....but RA shouldn't continue to advertise that it will. The problem with this mindset is that people will say their gun is 100% when it's really not. If "cheap ammo" is a gray area....Alex needs to come on this site and say so and retract/edit out all his previous statements that the XCR will run steel cased ammo. By contrast to BC, I do expect an AK, a VZ, my LWRC, XCR or any good quality gun (including pistols like Glocks, Sigs, HKs, XDs, M&Ps) to be 100% with steel cased ammo (as long as the ammo is properly loaded). Obviously, I'm not going to blame the gun for not cycling with underpowered/improperly loaded ammo.....though if it runs 100% on absolute shit ammo, I may be inclined to brag about it. ;)

As for steel case "not sealing the chamber" frankly, I find this misleading. Why? B/c when the weapon fires, the case expands to the size of the chamber (It is NOT true to say that steel doesn't expand "as much" as brass). It can't expand any larger than the chamber and it doesn't expand any smaller either. It is "fire formed" to the chamber's shape/size. The chamber is sealed for the split second when the case fully expands....now, it may have blow by as the case extracts...but that's going to happen with steel or brass....just at differing rates (more below).

When pressure subsides and extraction starts to occur, the case has contracted. The elasticity of steel cases versus brass ones is definitely different and they will contract at different rates; meaning that steel could contract faster (based on the fact that brass retains heat better and is therefore more malleable, especially when hot) or it could mean that steel contracts slower (as it is less malleable to begin with) and in the first case, this could allow more powder residue into the chamber.....however, if you're getting blow back, it's relatively minor and shouldn't be enough to cause massive amounts of powder residue to clog the chamber to the point of causing stuck cases. I suspect the real difference is the lubricity/friction coefficient of brass (.35) vs. steel (.8 ) combined with a progressively dirtier chamber, weaker ammo charges, expanding metal in the form of heated chambers, etc. It's not just one variable.

The reason the flex hone works is that it makes the chamber smoother and I'd argue it actually removes a very small amount of material making the chamber a little looser if you do it long enough.

One point I'd like to reiterate: You CAN over lube a firearm if you put lube in the chamber. It's similar to hydro-locking or "hydraulicing" an engine. Simply put, it's not an accepted practice to lube the chamber and not run a clean patch to clear out the excess if you're not planning to store the weapon. You can also over lube certain types of firearms (most polymer pistols, for example, only require a few drops of oil in VERY specific places).

Ejection does not have to be exactly 2 o'clock everytime....Every XCR I've seen or fired has thrown them from 1-4 o'clock. Depends on the powder charge in the ammo, the given cartridge (they all vary ever so slightly), the gas setting, etc.

BC makes excellent points about making sure the gas dial is properly re-installed ANYTIME you remove it and that you should also check your brass deflector (plastic piece bolted with one bolt to the rear of the ejection port). If you've got the wrong sized deflector, it could be keeping your spent cases from getting out of the ejection port.

Also, I should have said it before, but yes, the recoil spring does come off of the rod....however, unless you are changing the spring, there's really no point. If you look at the end of the rod, the removal process is pretty intuitive. Compress the spring at the end that is towards the muzzle...there's a little C shaped "cup" that goes around the rod. The rod has two flats machined into it. Just rotate the cup off of the rod with the spring compressed.. Getting it back on may be fun (just a forewarning).

I'd agree with BC that 10K of steel case with no failures and no lube isn't a reasonable expectation...but I'd say 300 rounds with zero issues is acceptable, but more would definitely be better IMO. I'm at 620 on one upper now and over 400 two others (honestly, I've lost count on the 16"....it may be over 500) with no lube and no failures. Personally, I'd like to see 1K with no cleaning, and no failures....even if that means adding a little lube before really trusting it....but everyone's MMV.


JMO, again YMMV.

Sean
 
#13 ·
I did get the MSAR. I have not yet fired it. It is recommended that I break it in with brass cased ammo, not steel before it gets (more) reliable with steel. I am awaiting the new ammo to arrive still.

I am very interested in staying with the XCR over the ACR or SCAR, and the only way I can see myself do this is to stick with the one I have. I just need to get its reliability up.

My gut says to keep it and get it firing correctly. I suspect that the major cleaning is going to help. I did not lube the chamber, I lubed the sliding metal parts.

Tonight I bought some Mobil-1 while I was out. Seemed like a good $6 experiment. Before I go back out to the range, I am going to clean off all the existing lube, re-lube it with the Mobil-1, and see how it does. If things go less than smooth, I'll try honing the chamber.

I assume there is little risk in honing the chamber. I am not going to ruin it by doing this am I? My experience is that metal is removed very slowly, and there should be a large margin of error between enough and too much, unless .00050" is the tolerance.

If the price of reliably firing cheap ammo is that I need to clean it between uses, that is fair to me.

How do I tell if I have the correct brass deflector? Is it as simple as measuring it? How long should it be?
 
#14 ·
I did get the MSAR. I have not yet fired it. It is recommended that I break it in with brass cased ammo, not steel before it gets (more) reliable with steel. I am awaiting the new ammo to arrive still.

I am very interested in staying with the XCR over the ACR or SCAR, and the only way I can see myself do this is to stick with the one I have. I just need to get its reliability up.

My gut says to keep it and get it firing correctly. I suspect that the major cleaning is going to help. I did not lube the chamber, I lubed the sliding metal parts.

Tonight I bought some Mobil-1 while I was out. Seemed like a good experiment. Before I go back out to the range, I am going to clean off all the existing lube, re-lube it with the Mobil-1, and see how it does. If things go less than smooth, I'll try honing the chamber.

I assume there is little risk in honing the chamber. I am not going to ruin it by doing this am I? My experience is that metal is removed very slowly, and there should be a large margin of error between enough and too much, unless .00050" is the tolerance.

If the price of reliably firing cheap ammo is that I need to clean it between uses, that is fair to me.

How do I tell if I have the correct brass deflector? Is it as simple as measuring it? How long should it be?
Not sure on the size of the deflector. I can measure mine and see if it's the right one....If you measure along the "line" on the deflector from the rounded edge to the middle of the slanted edge, it is 1.25" long for a 5.56 rifle.

Honing the chamber shouldn't cause any problems or "ruin" it in any way. Once the gun runs correctly....you won't need to clean it every time between uses.

If you decide to keep it, we'll get it running....it just may take some patience and a little more money on your part.

Sean
 
#16 ·
This forum is no longer populated by XCR enthusiasts... they all left when they got tired of the crap you just got in this thread.

Sorry to inform you bro, but this forum died a while back, and all that is left is the trolls and those who have not figured it out yet. I'm just here to troll the trolls ;)
*edit* quote taken out of context for the purpose of humor only! ;)
 
#19 ·
Sorry, just feeling like the forum is pretty cool, and my sense of humor didn't translate...Probably a bad choice by me, oh well. Sorry to Jack-o too, not tying to be a jerk.
Honestly, it is so cool that Sean tries so hard to help, thats all!
 
G
#20 ·
TLDR

my response:

Standard stuff:
-clean, lube, check tite on bolts/screws, locktite as needed
-check gas dial, gas block and barrel gas bleed hole for obstructions
-re-shoot
-dont lube chamber... ever.
-a rough chamber is not your problem (99%)

if you are in break in period for new rifle... this is 100% normal and is no cause for concern AT ALL. Gun smooths out considerably with shooting or working the action/dry fire repeatedly. Try that.

if none of the above works... return to RA for service.

I now return you to the trolls :D
 
#21 ·
TLDR is exactly your problem Jack (as usual). (TLDR= Too Long; Didn't Read)

Again, if you'd pay attention....you'd know this isn't a "new" gun. It's used and already 'broken in'.

I am inclined to agree that the gun is just dirty....but if cleaning doesn't solve the problem, the chamber is the next logical step that costs very little and may solve the issues. If that doesn't solve it.....sending it back to RA is certainly an option (though usually a piss poor one in terms of results and time spent)....but Rob still has the option of modifying the gun to run himself as well.

If he wants help in that endeavor, I'm more than willing to help him out. If he'd rather go the RA CS route....we can all help him there with advice as well.

Sean
 
#22 ·
TLDR

my response:

Standard stuff:
-clean, lube, check tite on bolts/screws, locktite as needed
-check gas dial, gas block and barrel gas bleed hole for obstructions
-re-shoot
-dont lube chamber... ever.
-a rough chamber is not your problem (99%)

if you are in break in period for new rifle... this is 100% normal and is no cause for concern AT ALL. Gun smooths out considerably with shooting or working the action/dry fire repeatedly. Try that.

if none of the above works... return to RA for service.

I now return you to the trolls
Jack,the only troll in this thread is YOU.There are many here who have gone considerably out of their way to help the OP.You on the other hand don't even fucking bother to read those posts because you're too lazy to read more than two sentences,but are more than willing to contribute your own reply which may be well intentioned but is not specific enough to be very usefull again,because you don't even read what the problem is! If this forum is as full of trolls as you suggest,you sir are welcome to leave anytime you would like.Frankly I'm sick of your smartass fucking commentary.I have tried to be patient and accept your offer of friendship,but my friends don't act this way and I don't consider anyone who does as such.My apologies to the forum for offending anyone here and to the OP for the thread interuption,but enough is enough. :asshat:
 
#24 ·
TLDR

my response:

Standard stuff:
-clean, lube, check tite on bolts/screws, locktite as needed
-check gas dial, gas block and barrel gas bleed hole for obstructions
-re-shoot
-dont lube chamber... ever.
-a rough chamber is not your problem (99%)

if you are in break in period for new rifle... this is 100% normal and is no cause for concern AT ALL. Gun smooths out considerably with shooting or working the action/dry fire repeatedly. Try that.

if none of the above works... return to RA for service.

I now return you to the trolls
Jack,the only troll in this thread is YOU.There are many here who have gone considerably out of their way to help the OP.You on the other hand don't even fucking bother to read those posts because you're too lazy to read more than two sentences,but are more than willing to contribute your own reply which may be well intentioned but is not specific enough to be very usefull again,because you don't even read what the problem is! If this forum is as full of trolls as you suggest,you sir are welcome to leave anytime you would like.Frankly I'm sick of your smartass fucking commentary.I have tried to be patient and accept your offer of friendship,but my friends don't act this way and I don't consider anyone who does as such.My apologies to the forum for offending anyone here and to the OP for the thread interuption,but enough is enough. :asshat:
Well said, Matt. :)
 
#23 ·
Rob,my advice to you is to follow Seank's instruction.They are spot on.Your XCR is very close to running 100% on steel cased ammo.I highly doubt it was dirty enough to cause your problem,but checking the various things listed certainly removes that parameter.Most rifles are flexhoned (or dressed) at the manufacturer,so it's not something that will hurt it unless it's done to complete excess.Anytime you can remove possible tightness or high spots in the chroming will only ease your extraction.This IS a known issue for some XCR's.
A properly spec-ed chamber will have to be very excessively dirty to cause cases to extract hard to the point of short stroking malfunctions.Yes steel cased ammo is very dirty,but it's not cheap because it's unreliable,it's cheap because of the less expensive componets,keep in mind the AK got it's legendary reputation for reliability using "unreliable" steel case ammo!
As Sean suggested even steel cased ammo will seal the chamber,trust me steel cases expand at close to 60,00 P.S.I.! .I'm talking several thousand rounds here before requiring a scrub.Obviously you don't have to let it go that long,but it can be done.I'm not suggesting this be done,just that the rifle can be much dirtier than many think and still run like a house on fire.Lubrication as the rifle gets progressively dirtier will help it to run,but again overlubrication is really unnecessary with the XCR unlike most AR's that do generally require them to be wet to run to high round counts.Have faith,you will get it going 100%,your at the threshold now.
 
#25 ·
Well, it keeps getting worse. :duh:

I decided to clean off the lube and go with the mobil-1. While I was ther I decided to clean the gas block and gas tube, and get this thing really clean. Since I had to remove the barrel, I thought I'd spend some more time scrubbing the chamber and barrel and let the solvent soak longer to do its job.

This all went fine and I was feeling pretty good about how clean it was getting, so I decided to remove the recoil spring and get the parts underneath it cleaned up. I was soooo careful removing it. Didn't matter, the c shaped clip went flying, hit something, took a bounce and after looking for it for an hour, I've given up. It's gone.

So, what is this thing called and where can I get a new one?

Thanks for all the help so far guys, especially Sean K, you've been real godsends (and I mean that in a secular way ;)).
 
#27 ·
LOL.. You've learned rule #212 of the XCR... Don't EVER $*@& with the recoil spring unless you ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY have no other possible choice... LOL...

On the plus side, C-clips are fairly common. You should be able to find one either at a local hardware store (i.e Ace/True Value) or possibly an automotive store. Worse comes to worse, you can probably find one at a well stocked hobby store. I use them a lot on model heli's. Take the rod with you or perhaps someone here knows the spec to get you the right size...
 
#28 ·
I don't think this is an ordinary c-clip. It was much beefier than the c-clips I am used to working with.

I also fly model heli's, but I fly micro's and sub micros, so not a lot of c-clips there. mSRs and 120SRs (with a nice radio though).

Pinball machine maintenance, that's my c-clip nightmare.
 
#29 ·
It is NOT an ordinary C clip.....do you have a good sized magnet around? I usually find my parts that shoot to God knows where with one like this $9:



Something like this will work great too....if you have it $5:



Or even better $35:



Don't feel bad, it happens to all of us.....happens to me more than I'd like to admit. ;)
If you don't have one and can't find the part.....you're going to have to contact:

Kermit Zahm

Wild Thang Farms (Not Wild Thangs Firearms…common error ! )

3150 Fuller Road

Emmett, Idaho 83617

208-869-1616 (cell)

email: frgprnz@outdrs.net

You'll need to call him or email him to order a new one.

While you have him on the phone, ask for a spare parts kit for the XCR (last I checked they were $82) and a spare 5.56 complete bolt (around $125). That should cover you for spare parts.......and I *think* the clip you lost may be included in that spare parts kit.
 
#30 ·
"spring guide clip" I think. And kermit is always the go to guy I think..

Copied from one of DTOM's posts:


Kermit Zahm

Wild Thang Farms please (Not Wild Thangs Firearms…common error ! )

3150 Fuller Road

Emmett, Idaho 83617


208-869-1616 (cell)

email: frgprnz@outdrs.net

*edit to ad* just saw this info already above, oh well :D
 

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#31 ·
I have a bunch of good sized rare earth magnets I can hold between my fingers as I sweep my hand above the carpet. No luck after an hour of searching.

I assume I don't want to fire it until the clip is in place.

I spent some more time cleaning it tonight, and according to the manual, I want to run solvent and dry patches until they run clean, and also run solvent covered brushes to loosen things up. I sprayed down the barrel, let it sit, and then brushed and then ran patches, and they are still coming out filthy. I have run a lot oa patches and used a lot of solvent. Will this thing ever come clean? Or am I just being too anal?

I let the gas cylinder soak a little with the solvent and got the surface carbon off it. There appears to be some scratches and pitting on the face of it. Should I not use brass scrapers on the chrome part?

Also, people are suggesting I let the solvent sit in the barrel for some time to do its work, but the manual says no longer than 5 minutes. Thoughts on this?

Thanks for all the hand holding as I get up to speed with this. I am certainly learning my way around this gun over the last few nights.
 
#33 ·
I gave it one last look last night. When it popped off, it shot 4'-5' to my right. When I found it, it was about 4 feet to the left of where I was sitting. It really took a surprising bounce.

The good new: the rifle is back together! The parts order can wait until I have a little more money.

Still curious about my cleaning question though...
 
#34 ·
I spent some more time cleaning it tonight, and according to the manual, I want to run solvent and dry patches until they run clean, and also run solvent covered brushes to loosen things up. I sprayed down the barrel, let it sit, and then brushed and then ran patches, and they are still coming out filthy. I have run a lot oa patches and used a lot of solvent. Will this thing ever come clean? Or am I just being too anal?

I let the gas cylinder soak a little with the solvent and got the surface carbon off it. There appears to be some scratches and pitting on the face of it. Should I not use brass scrapers on the chrome part?

Also, people are suggesting I let the solvent sit in the barrel for some time to do its work, but the manual says no longer than 5 minutes. Thoughts on this?
Rob,if your spending more than 20 minutes cleaning the XCR on a basic "make sure it will run" maintenance,your overdoing it.Now I'm not saying you can't take more time doing a thorough cleaning,but the rifle if properly in spec will run thousands of rounds without actually needing to be cleaned so that it will run.I've done it with two different XCR,so I know that it's possible.
Now as far as the bore,if your having problems getting the patches to come out clean you may need a copper solvent such as Sweets 7.62 and a little more brushing to help break up the remaining fouling.This if only if you want the bore to be perfect and is really unnecessary.Do not let the copper solvents sit in the barrel to long,they contain high concentrations of ammonia and can possibly damage the bore if left too long,although it would take a fair amount of time.
Letting the gas valve sit in solvent for a few minutes will certainly help make the carbon deposits more easily removed.As far as the piston head,which I think may be stainless not chrome,is ok to scrap,but try to avoid gouging the surfaces.It does not have to be spotless either in order for the XCR to run well.Just make sure all the holes in the gas valve are clear and open and the one in the gasblock as well.The gas port in the barrel and the hole in the gas block should not require as much attention but should be checked every 2000 rounds or so,for complete piece of mind.
 
#35 ·
I spent some more time cleaning it tonight, and according to the manual, I want to run solvent and dry patches until they run clean, and also run solvent covered brushes to loosen things up. I sprayed down the barrel, let it sit, and then brushed and then ran patches, and they are still coming out filthy. I have run a lot oa patches and used a lot of solvent. Will this thing ever come clean? Or am I just being too anal?

I let the gas cylinder soak a little with the solvent and got the surface carbon off it. There appears to be some scratches and pitting on the face of it. Should I not use brass scrapers on the chrome part?

Also, people are suggesting I let the solvent sit in the barrel for some time to do its work, but the manual says no longer than 5 minutes. Thoughts on this?
Rob,if your spending more than 20 minutes cleaning the XCR on a basic "make sure it will run" maintenance,your overdoing it.Now I'm not saying you can't take more time doing a thorough cleaning,but the rifle if properly in spec will run thousands of rounds without actually needing to be cleaned so that it will run.I've done it with two different XCR,so I know that it's possible.
Now as far as the bore,if your having problems getting the patches to come out clean you may need a copper solvent such as Sweets 7.62 and a little more brushing to help break up the remaining fouling.This if only if you want the bore to be perfect and is really unnecessary.Do not let the copper solvents sit in the barrel to long,they contain high concentrations of ammonia and can possibly damage the bore if left too long,although it would take a fair amount of time.
Letting the gas valve sit in solvent for a few minutes will certainly help make the carbon deposits more easily removed.As far as the piston head,which I think may be stainless not chrome,is ok to scrap,but try to avoid gouging the surfaces.It does not have to be spotless either in order for the XCR to run well.Just make sure all the holes in the gas valve are clear and open and the one in the gasblock as well.The gas port in the barrel and the hole in the gas block should not require as much attention but should be checked every 2000 rounds or so,for complete piece of mind.

^What he said. :) Emphasis added in the one part you need to be sure of before test firing again.
 
#36 ·
Yup, all the holes in the gas block are clear for sure. The block is spotless. I'll try a copper cleaner to get the bore/barrel cleaner. I thik I will probably do an annual teardown on this thing to get it spotless. My OCD side really liked the act of cleaning every nook and cranny. My lazy side appreciates the fact that I don't need to actually do it.

I'm "working from home" next week, so I am going to try to get in some more range time. Maybe the weekend too.

Brass ammo came in today for the MSAR too. Whee!
 
#37 ·
Let us know how it goes with both guns.....I'm interested in the MSAR....especially after break in. I hear they run really reliably with steel cased ammo as well.

Have fun. :)
 
#40 ·
Go fuck yourself Jack.

That short enough of a post for ya?
I concur,in fact here is a prophylactic for you,just to make sure you don't injure yourself in that endeavor! ;D
 

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