Well, we've heard the Sig556 v. XCR debate, that VB so vehemently stated his position on Sig Forum and I think it's pretty much a dead horse right now.
On the other side, It's funny seeing how internet commando's duke it out sometimes, specially with rifles that haven't been release, produced, or available to the public and very few mil and LEO's.
MASADA:
I for one, can't wait until the Masada comes out. I like what I see and Magpul has always been very driven to make good stuff. There really isn't much on that rifle that is "new". I know everyone says it takes after the AR-180, but I never shot a 180, but did a G36 and had a SL8. I see it as a aluminum version of that. I'm excited about the Masada but it's the first firearm to be made by a company who never produced a firearm yet. Hopefully I'll get a chance to get one before the next "Big AW Ban" takes effect and hopefully it will be a success, but ask pilots about flying the "A" models. Plus it's Magpul first attempt to make a firearm, besides their version of the AR lower that also hasn't been released. It's like having Corning Ware start to make high end stoves and ovens. I'll wager the risk when/if it gets released. Don't hold your breath for 1st Q '08. And that's another thing about Magpul. They are sorta that hot single chick that all the guys are after, makes herself willing to date, always says "I'll go if I don't have to (fill in blank) but never goes on a single date. I'll wager fall of '08. I hope I'm wrong.
MSAR STG556:
Looks as if the first batch is out.......and now all being recalled. Remember what i said about "A" models? I've got some bad moo-ju about this one. Apparently Pete Athens, the AUG God here in the US, has cut ties with MSAR recently, even after all that development and production. Tony Mafione, Microtech CEO(?), has has a bad rap w/Microtech knife geeks for some time. It doesn't sound good for them. The STG556 are having some issues. Yeah, they look cool and come in a cool foam fitted case, with a knife (geek), and all that jazz for 2 frikin K's! It only takes propietary MSAR mags too? No thanks! I'll take my $1300 XCR with it's $16.88 Wal-Mart case and throw the new in the wrap AR mag in my AR mag pile. Seeing Pete go is a very bad sign. I've dealt with him and he is a good guy. Really believes in making good guns, specifically the AUG. Sorta reminds me of Alex and ppl at Robarms. I really wish them the best, but I don't see the best happening. I was hoping to have a good source of replacement parts for my AUG. I may get my wish afterall.
I know it would be cool if RA picked Pete up and just made replacement AUG/MSAR/AXR parts and some other projects.
TPD/AXR:
Don't know much about them. We'll have to see. They've seem in competition with the MSAR guys of who will get the product out first. Apparently MSAR won..........for now. They will crush MSAR in competition now that Pete has walked away.
FN SCAR:
We'd be extremely lucky to get one before the AWB II. Doubtful we will get our hands on one period. They are a big company, with alot of mil contract potential. I'd buy one if it is first available. Don't expect to pay anything less than $2500 for one and they will never go down in price, ever. I don't see what the SCAR will offer that the XCR can't. By the time if it is available to civvie sales I think the XCR will be in the A2 or 3 range (already the new GB-A1, stock, match trigger, few refinements done) with at least 3 or 4 caliber versions and barrel lengths and twists.
Hk 416:
Bwahahahahahahahahahahahaha. 4,frikin plus thousand dollars for an NFA upper. Kiss my ass! If the G36 and UMP didn't crack like egg shells in a Tijuana donkey driven cart, Hk would have been a 100% perfect producing company that deserved the big ego head attitude they have now. The 416 only appeals to my Hk love and right now Hk ain't loving me back so much. The 416 isn't "revolutionary". And for that price I'll go LWRC or POF before I go Hk, IF they ever offer it to civvies.
Sig556:
I'm not knocking them. I think comparing a Sig556 with and XCR is like comparing a VW Kubelwagen/Thing (sp?) with the newest Jeep Wrangler Rubicon. I like them both. They do the same job, just one is more up to date. They came through with a product, had some issues that seem resolved and they are populating the world with their product. That is more that can be said about others (see above) I doubt having Sig Sauer now stamped (or is it laser etched?) on the receiver will make it a better product and I don't see how the 556 version is any inferior to the 55X Swiss versions in a practical only standpoint. I hope they sell well.
Before 11/08 I will have gotten another XCR, a Sig556 w/Sig Sauer stamp, and hopefully a Masada "A" model. That along with the 7.62x39 XCR kit, and hopefully but not likely, the same for Masada, maybe in 5.45x39 version to boot. And lots of mags for the pile.
What do ya'll think? The Glock Monkey hungers for knowledge!!!!
That's a very impressive break down of what is here and what may be coming. I wish I knew more about some of the weapon systems to comment further.
One thing I will say is that you won't have to wait long the have the 'Sig Sauer' name printed on the side of the 556. As of October 1st, 2007 the US company SigArms no longer exsist. They have changed their name to Sig Sauer
Enjoy!"SIGARMS® CHANGES NAME TO SIG SAUER®, ALIGNING COMPANY WITH GLOBAL BRAND".
O.S.O.K.
Not sure that you can really have much of a debate about rifles that may or may not ever be released to the civilian market, in unknown timeframes, in unknown configurations. I'd even wager that not even the CEO of HK or FN, etc, knows the exact details of everything that will happen, because if their business is like any other, they will have a plan that looks great on paper, and then real world factors come in to screw it up one way or the other. With every single one of these, I'll believe it will happen when I see it, and not one second sooner. Anyhow... that said, my initial thoughts on the concepts as they sit now (which have nothing to do with any real knowledge of their functionality, either now or in any potiential civilian configuration) are as follows:
Masada: Sure Magpul makes great stuff. It is their first attempt at a whole gun. I wouldn't buy it without market feedback first. Nice compatibility with AR stuff. What does it do that others guns don't? Other than it having the potential to be a nice rifle, I don't see what the big deal is. It just doesn't give me that old fashioned lovin' feeling like some of the other concepts out there. Plus its butt-ugly, on par with the old XM-8 concept in that regard.
MSAR STG556/TPD/AXR: Not familiar with these. Is one an AUG clone?
FN's SCAR rifle: FN has a good enough rep that if they released something, and I liked the spec sheet, I would buy it sight unseen. Bullpups don't get me going, which is the only reason I don't own an FS2000. If they released a SCAR spec standard configuration carbine, I'd be all over it.
HK 416: Same story. I would buy it immediately for any reasonable price (less than 2k for the base rifle). The reason the few out there now are going for $5k is pure supply and demand, not that the MSRP is that high.
Sig 556: I can't believe I'm saying this, but the 556 in its current configuration does not interest me enough to buy one. I shot one. The best feature of that rifle is the trigger. The weight is a killer. No SCAR-spec features. No well integrated factory folder. Screwed on top rail and the continued problems with it mean there is not one single true hard mounting point on the entire rifle, even for the primary optic. One day it may be something I'd like with some further refining, but for now I'll pass. Like others have said, I think it competes much more effectively on a "retro" stage with AK's, AUGs, etc, than it does with SCAR rifles/concepts.
I will also throw in:
The rumored LMT piston MRP upper: LMT is another company that I respect well enough to buy anything they make sight unseen. While my normal 10.5" DI upper is great, if they released a piston MRP, I would get that plus the shortest barrel and use it to "rebuild" my SBR into a piston gun. That would also bring it up to nearly a SCAR feature set, minus the stock. But if the exact rail height were maintained, I wouldn't really care about that. It would also probably abate my desire for an HK 416 to the point that I wouldn't really care about getting one, as the functionality as far as I can see now would be virtually identical.
My take on these:
Masada: This one interests me. The AR18 action is actually a pretty good one, though it does share the bolt weakness of the AR15. The Brits managed to royally screw it up with the SA80, but that's them. Magpul has aquired a very good reputation for quality, support, and follow through. We'll see how it goes once they actually hit the streets. The only problem for me with this gun is I already have an XCR and if I get another self-loading .223, it's going to be another XCR. You'll see this again...
FN SCAR: Very intersested. A lot will depend on price and release date. Again, it has an artillery-style rotating bolt. Possible weakness (I've heard it, too, is an AR18 copy, but have never seen one, soooo...dunno). The real sticking point on this one is I already have an XCR, yadda, yadda, yadda. As far as I'm concerned XCR = SCAR, if not XCR > SCAR. Again, we won't know until they hit the streets. Another strike against it is the rather tepid FS2000 introduction. Different gun, but not impressive, especially for the money. Bottom line is it will probably cost too much for what it is, especially compared to the XCR. The collector in me, though, drools.
HK416. Don't hold your breath on this one. An interesting idea, but it's still an AR15 upper. The few out there now are selling for around $5k and that's just ridiculous for an AR15, no matter how improved or well-executed. Dealing with HK isn't any fun either. Need spares? Good luck. I can put up with it on P7s, P9s, and G3s since they so rarely break anything. What happens when you break that AR bolt at 10k rounds? What is the parts commonality there? I have no clue, and these are all strikes against the 416/417. HK may never sell to the commerical market either, all rumors aside.
[email protected]
The AUG clones. Man, they're clones. Clones are generally bad news in River City. The introduction of the Microtech AUG is a complete disaster with peanuts and popcorn. Kent might do better with the AXR/APD/whatever they're calling it, but it's still a clone and I wouldn't touch it with any sort of pole before it gains a track record out in the real world. Also, these things aren't cheap. You can get a real Steyr USR for around $2700. The Microtech gun is selling around $2200 to $2500. Get a real AUG is you must have one. Let the pioneers take the arrows on these clones.
OK, I do have to comment about the last 556 I saw. It was the SWAT version and it is better than the sorry junk I've seen up until this time. The sights still are a joke, the stock isn't even a funny joke, but the fore-end is done right with a good rail setup and it does have a good finish and a helluva trigger. Also it has an $1800 price point and that isn't very funny either.
SIG 556: Junk. Lets see how SIG SAUER feels about having their name stamped on it. The closer it gets to a 55x, the closer it is to getting my money.
American AUG: They arent clones, they are look-alikes, which is even a worse than a clone. They also have no distribution network at all. I wouldnt waste a penny on one. Junk
Masada: Magpul is a good company. I think the Masada is somewhat overly complex which lowers the yield of the weapon, but generally I think it is good stuff. Will I buy one? PRobably not. I think its ugly
SCAR: Handled it, fired it, loved it. Has some quirks like takedown and charging handle location, but I want it. I think the XCR is better all around, but I still would like a SCAR
HK416: I want one...badly. Incredible design, QC and performance. The BMW of the AR15 world. I would pass on all other AR15 pistons till HK comes out to play. You put the LWRC next to an HK416 and the LMRC looks crude in comparison.
I'm not worried about a ban, if there is one I will an Fs2000 before anything else
"Amateurs talk about tactics, but professionals study logistics." - Gen. Robert Barrow, USMC (1980)
www.acrforum.com
You know, I forgot all about the f/FS200 when I wrote that. I only got to handle one.
My reservations about it is no BHO, and it seems as if the mags are not drop free but can easily made drop free by removing some little rubber dealybops. By no BHO? WTF???!?!
It doesnt need a BHO. It's cool, and I can pretend I am in HALO. Worth way more than a BHOOriginally Posted by i303
"Amateurs talk about tactics, but professionals study logistics." - Gen. Robert Barrow, USMC (1980)
www.acrforum.com
We had a conversation about the FS2000 at the range this last weekend. The most accurate description of its handling characteristics was the comment that it is like trying to shoulder and shoot a boombox. It is that awkward. I want to like the thing, but everytime I pick one up, I just think, "Geez, what a pig."
VB is actually right about the Microtech gun. It is just a lookalike. The other one is--supposedly--closer to the actual AUG execution, but just how close I don't know. Everytime I see a new picture of the internals of the Microtech gun, I think, "Where is this coming from? What is this crap? My AUG doesn't have anything like that inside of it." Somehow I don't think A3 AUGs are that different inside than the A1 or A2/USR guns. Then there's the whole magazine thing. Failure is all over this gun like white on rice. And it ain't cheap!!
Man, I'm heavy on the negative vibes tonight.
What else...hmmm...ah, has anyone seen the "new" HK SL8-G36? $2200? Hehe. Take a look when you get a chance. Words fail me.
SCAR-will buy it ASAP, both L & H. Between internal and SOCOM T&E, it should be bomb proof. FN can make this gun for much less than that $2,000 figure you guys keep throwing out there. They have the ability to spread the R&D recovery over civilian sales and military contracts. This gun should really be $1,500 or less. Let's all start saying that is what we'll pay.
HK 416-I'm no AR fan but this thing is said to be an incredibly rugged piece. I'm all over it.
FS2000-had it, liked it, moved on though. It is a great $1,200 gun wrapped in a dynamic package that gets folks to part with $2,000.
Domestic Aug Clones-no interest at all. Valid or not, flashbacks of other clones (HK types) that aren't 100% reliable give pause.
Sig 556 Pistol (for an SBR)-right up there with the SCAR & HK 416 in 'got to have it' status.
Sig 556-I'm on my third and as many of you know, it has performed well beyond my expectations.
XCR PDW-I'm pretty interested unless Sig gets that 556 pistol out.
Masada-much farther down my list than it seems to be for most. It sounds great in theory but these guys are used to making things with few moving parts and nothing exploding inside of them. I put this way ahead of the Aug clones but slightly behind the XCR PDW on my list.
I have a POF 5.56 upper and a POF .308 on order. Masada... gonna get it.
I have a buddy that got an LWRC upper, it's pretty much a 416 upper. You should check those out if you don't want to pay the $3500 minimum. I don't like the HK or the LWRC so that's why I went with POF. By the way the LWRC isn't cheap, @ $1600 for the upper.
I'm thinking about a Barret 6.8 upper.
Keep the Sig.
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