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Handgun advice

6K views 26 replies 14 participants last post by  mfcmb 
#1 ·
I recently sold my XD .45 I loved it but wanted something that was more lefty friendly. Now I know what your gonna say, "you don;t need a slide release on the right hand side. When you insert a new mag just use the "stab yourself in the chest move" to rack the round". I did that with the XD, but feel more comfortable with my latest. I have a S&W M&P .45. Really like it. SO this leads me to my question. I would like to get another pistol (I would actually like to get 2)but have been buying as much ammo and mags as I can afford lately for my rifles. Am also saving greenbacks for my XCR that is on order. But back to the handguns. I would eventually like to buy another .45 and have been looking at the HK 45. I have turned in my paperwork for my CCW and I think that maybe I should by something that I can carry easily as my next handgun purchase. Or since my M&P is 10 shots, maybe I'll get a 9mm (to carry and also to have something with higher capacity). But then if i add yet another caliver in my arsenal, I will need to start buying bulk in that caliber as well as they others. Would you stay with .45 or do you think the 9mm is a good caliber to add for the higher capacity and possible ease of concealment (depending on gun of course). I know my thread is all over the place, but I was thinking that maybe if I tried to put my thoughts down on paper, then maybe I could make some sense of them..... :duh:
 
#2 ·
If you're wanting to go with 9mm, why not take advantage and get a compact model so you have a significant difference in size? It's nice to have something that you can slip into your pocket.



 
#4 ·
I think if I was you I'd stick with the .45 if that was my caliber.

Between the wife and myself we have 4 pistols, 3 of them mine. I have 2 .40's and a 9mm on the way. I have a Walther PPS .40 as my carry piece and it only gives me 7 rounds, but its tiny and powerful. I have a CZ PO7 on the way for classes... its 16 + 1 in 9mm. I went with the theory that for my CCW piece I wanted it to be the largest round that I could fire comfortably and accurately. And for me that was the .40. Now after I went to a defensive pistol class I had to reload a TON for the different drills, and the folks with the XD's and glock's didn't. Thats fine I got more practice. However after all that I wanted something that had a little bit more rounds in the chamber and still pretty small so I'd have a larger carry variety, and still have the tiny guy for most of the time.

I hope that helps. For the record I think 7 rounds is plenty, but I'm now taking a couple of extra mags with me. While I dont wear them in the same spot, they are with me, so the small size is negated a little bit by having to carry extra mags.
 
#5 ·
As a lefty I feel your pain.  My first handgun was a Sig P226 in 9mm.  It is/was a right hander (uneducated purchase  :-[ ) but caused me no real problems the first few years I owned it.  Being a cross-eye-dominant shooter (left handed but right eye dominant) teaching myself to shoot righty was surprisingly easy.  The mag release is the biggest difference since I just rack the slide to release it anyway.

That said, a few of my friends just got HK45s and I've had the opportunity to shoot them extensively.  It's a phenomenal weapon and as you know, it's lefty friendly.  Though theirs don't fit my hand as nice as my P226 I still shoot it really well.  Installing the different grip size could change that, but like I said, they're not mine.  If you're thinking of 9mm the HK P30 is essentially the same setup.  I doubt even the HK45C would even conceal that well so maybe they're not the best fit for your criteria.

I've recently been bitten by the 1911 bug and that might be a possible answer.  I ordered one with an ambi thumb safety in case I decide to go lefty again.  There are plenty of carry models (some really compact: Springfield EMP, Kimber Ultra Carry II) that are lefty friendly and come in 9mm or .45   :2cents:
 
#6 ·
Since you already have a S&W M&P45 and aparently like that platform, why not get another M&P but this time in the 9mm compact form? I am also a lefty and love my M&P9, however mine is a full size. It resides on my hip every day and the full size is not too big or heavy to carry comfortably if you get a good holster. A proper gun belt is esential.

MadDog :2cents:

 
#7 ·
What MDD said. I have the M&P 45 Midsize and the 9c. My wife has the 9mm and I ordered her the Julie Goloski edition (so I could have her 9mm). 9mm is cheaper to train with and will provide another good choice in the safe. If you like the M&P and shoot it well, don't change.
 
#8 ·
Just bought a FNP-45 USG. If you like 45 and don't mind a full size, it's great. 15 rnd mag and one in the pipe beats the Glock, plus it is fully ambi,(slide release, mag release, decocker, safety). The USG model gives you the extra round in the mag, and the safety. For those 1911 fans, you can carry this cocked and locked and have a decent single action trigger. For Sig decocker fans, you can carry one in the pipe and have a heavy double action first shot. For those belt and suspender types you can carry one in the pipe, decock and safety it. The grip is much thinner than Glock and comes with a fatter backstrap if you want it. Also comes with 3 mags. Ran 300 rounds through it in quick succession without a single hiccup. Nice accuracy. Arguably most firepower in a handgun next to my Glock 20 with 17 +1 10mm power!
USG model not cheap...$659 +.
 
#9 ·
I just bought a FNP-45 USG also, ran my first 250 rounds through it the other day and love it so far. But there's no getting around that it is a very large pistol. Not to mention heavy. (BTW - a big thumbs up for the UpLula for this pistol.)

There are many times that you are just not going to want to carry a full size pistol like that. It's good to have one or two options. The more likely you are to carry it, the more likely you are to have it on you in the rare instance you really need it.

I don't know if you're married, but in getting a smaller pistol you can get something your wife or girlfriend would probably be more able to shoot also.



 
#10 ·
There's a lot of sense to sticking with a single platform for defense, especially if you're carrying. If you like the M&P (and many do), stick with it and get a 9mm. Of course, another way to look at the same equation is to take the money you would spend on the gun and buy reloading equipment.

tk
 
#11 ·
The wife has a Glock 23 (40) and Sig 229, both compact but still big for concealed carry...for that we have two Kahrs, an M9 and PM9. PM9 is a great pocket pistol though 9mm+p+ not very comfortable in the little Kahrs, but probably a reasonable stopper. I like my Kimber Ultra Carry II with an IWB tuckable holster...easier to get to, and bigger punch.
FNP45 is a big pistol, essentially the same as glock, though the grip is thinner. It works for me with a small of the back carry but I'm a big guy and many don't like that carry position.
 
#12 ·
Thanks everyone for your advice. I am thinking that a 9mm for carry will be my next purchase I am looking at this holster
http://crossbreedholsters.com/beltslide.html
Does anyone have it, or can you make a recommendation for a similar. I will eventually get another .45 which will probably be another M&P . 45 or an HK 45.
MaddogDan, when you say you carry your M&P everyday that open carry (LEO) or concealed.

Fast Eddie's comment: For Sig decocker fans, you can carry one in the pipe and have a heavy double action first shot. For those belt and suspender types you can carry one in the pipe, decock and safety it.

I want to carry with the later of these two. One in the pipe and safety on second choice being heavy double first action shot. I do like my handguns to have a manual safety. Does the M&P 9MM come with the option to have a manual safety?

I think VB recently posted that the HK P30's offer a manual safety now.
http://www.armas.es/foro/archivo.php?COD=47927


Was also looking at this but couldn't find if it has the ambi slide release.http://www.px4storm.com/index.aspx?m=53&did=55
hmmmmmmm......
 
#14 ·
OK so choices have been made.....and i feel good about them...
I went to a couple shops this week and checked out the HK45 (non USP). Love the grip and fit in my hand. Also like the single action double action w/safety and decocker. Will keep my M&P .45 and fit it with a light on rail. It will end up being my Go to gun for at home night defense. The HK 45 I just decided I have to have. Working on a trade for some stuff I have (ammo and what not). Found a good deal close to me, so we will see how it goes. Also decided that for my CCW I will end up getting the HK P30S (Thanks VB)
Spoke to HK this week they will not be available for a couple months with the safety. I was at the local gun show today and fondled a couple P30's. Again like the HK 45, the grip and feel is amazing. Psyched..
 
#15 ·
I'm surprised no one mentioned the 9mm's questionable penetration. If your comfortable with a 45, why not stick with a round most recognized as having a better penetration and stopping power (recognizing "stopping power" is a vague and dubious term)? Particularly if it is a true self defense weapon (and not a range gun)?

I agree with the FBI and others that 9mm is not enough, 40 is minimum, 45 better, and 10mm (not "light" loads) the best if you can master it (most don't have the will or $).

If I could get my wife to carry, a compromise on the 9mm might be in order, but if she could handle it, a 40 would be nice, 45 better....:)
 
#17 ·
No one has mentioned it because it's not necessarily so. I think some research will bear this out, if you care that much.

I'm a big fan of the .45. I just like it. However, I usually rely on the 9mmP for day to day protection needs (HK P7, if it matters--and it does, to me). I have no problem with 9mm. I lost interest in the Great Caliber Debate some years ago. Platform means more to me now than the actual caliber. Both 9mm and .45 (and the .40, for that matter) are in a similar place when it comes to energy output. .45 is probably a little better in this regard, but not enough to get that excited about. So the platform makes the difference (P7 or HiPower for me, no double action crap). With ammunition and component prices and shortages these days, the 9mmP makes even more sense. It's just easier to keep the gun running and shoot enough to matter. The .45 is about twice the price of the 9mmP these days, and that makes a difference when it comes to trigger time.

A lot of it is personal preference and really goes no further than that. My next handgun will probably be yet another .45, but I already know it probably won't get shot that much. The P7s will still rule the roost for defensive practice and carry. That probably will never change--though a Heirloom Precision SRT HiPower is tempting me mightily.
 
#20 ·
Marshall/Sanow hasn't been "refuted". It's mostly emprical observation. It is what it is. The problem is it's not good science, so it's not really reproduceable since you don't really know what individual cases they were looking at and exactly what criteria they used (it did seem to change some over time). It could be made up out of whole cloth and you'd never really know. I'm pretty sure it's not, but...well...it is what it is.

On the other hand, auto pistol calibers are pretty much the same when you start to look at what energy they haul around with them and how the bullets expand (or frequently don't). So you'd expect them to be kinda similar and what data is out there (no matter how spotty) seems to indicate this. I"ve shot a fair number of animals with various pistol calibers and when you're talking the usual suspects in autopistols, performance has been pretty similar.

All energy indicates it the ability to do work. Get the bullet to the target. Deform the bullet and the target. That's all you're doing. The more you have to work with, the better it'll probably be. Of course, it's more complicated than that, but essentially that's what's going on. You can jigger the amount of energy lost via penetration (solids), expansion (controlled, fast expansion, pre-fragmented), bullet weight for energy retention, and thus control to some degree what sort of wound channel you'll probably end up with. In the end, you'll just have to think about what you're willing to deal with and under what circumstances.

All ballistic gelatin was designed to do was test expansion. It gave a uniform, reproduceable medium (pig thigh muscle replication, if I recall correctly) to see what bullets would do when they were fired into flesh. No more, no less. It's interesting, but limited. Same with Marshall's data. It's interesting, but it's pretty murky when it comes to causality. In the end, you just have to read this stuff, think about what it actually is, then you can make a call. Mostly, it's going to be on faith and some personal preference.

I like P7s. They're the pistols I shoot best with. They happen to be 9mmP, so I work with 9mmP. If HK had ever managed to get the P7M7 to market, I'd be packing .45s more often (least until the prices went completely nuts). However, I don't feel particularly at a disadvantage with 9mm. If I had to carry my Super .38 auto for some reason, again, I wouldn't feel any particular trepidition over it's caliber. Or my .45s, of whatever flavor (though, I wish someone would buy my ammo for me...).
 
#21 ·
Sloan got it exactly again.

Now as for energy, let me first off state that energy has NO relevance to how a bullet acts.
That's dependent on bullet design.

As well, energy and momentum are NOT the same. The 9mm has more energy, but less momentum, than the 45ACP (typically, not always).

Now think of this.... we're going to compare 9mm 124 FMJ ammo to 45ACP 230 FMJ ammo.
A 9mm is a nominal 0.355 inches, where a 45ACP is a nominal .451 inches.
Therefore, if a hole was put in a badguy with a 9mm - then we fired a 45 through the EXACT same hole, the ONLY difference (being as they both are heavy on penetration and don't typically expand) is the size of the hole. The hole is bigger? Yeah, by 0.048" per side. So if you missed something vital with the 9mm, you're going to miss it (unless you missed by less than 0.048") with the 45ACP too.

So using this logic, the 9mm FMJ shouldn't do any better or worse than the 45ACP FMJ.

Amazingly, that's what Marshall and Sanow observed from real-life shootings. Funny how stuff like that happens, eh?

More important to me than bullet diameter is the bullet DESIGN. I'll pick a good 9mm +P load over a 45ACP FMJ any day, for any reason. Now comparing apples to apples, the 45 is a better round - but it's statistically not better enough for me to lose any sleep over whatsoever.

So if you have a bullet design that works well in (for instance) deer or pigs, then it's not going to expand rapidly enough for use against people - and you get the 44 magnum results. The bullet penetrates completely, and expends energy on the far side of the target. After all, we couldn't care less about how much energy (or momentum) the bullet has as it leaves the barrel - we only care about how much energy the bullet expends INSIDE the target. With a through-and-through, where the bullet carries a bunch of energy away after passing through the target, you've effectively transferred as much energy to the target as a much smaller, weaker pistol could if that round used a better bullet design.

After all, ALL pistol rounds suck - so I'm surely not going to fire a single round and then run up to my assailant and ask if he's OK or not.
 
#22 ·
Bravo,

What you just said (about energy, momentum, width of wound channel, and pistol round expansion and wound potential in general) is why I side with the penetration side of this eternal debate. It is the most "objective" and predictable factor (not including aim/training) IMO. I guess I side with the "two holes is better than one" thinking also.

Now that I think about it, I suppose a 327 mag (a round that exhibits solid, if not "over" penetration with relatively light recoil) in an auto pistol might be my ideal PD gun.

On the other hand, I just went with a 6.8 XCR because I am just not comfortable with defending the home base with a 22 (I have no military background, only hunting)... ???
 
#23 ·
My wife carries 9mm, she is happy with it. When she went to Gunsite they said that they would rather see the average woman show up with a 45 or 9mm and not a 40. Apparently the snappiness and loud report from the 40 can get a little old after 1000 rounds. 9mm is GTG in my book, though I carry a 45.

You guys need to quit screwing around with the 10mm and get a 45 WIN MAG.
 
#24 ·
Crenca, if you're after penetration only, and you're limiting the debate to 9mm versus 45ACP, then the 9mm has more penetration when using only FMJ bullets.

That's the exact round that I said I'd never carry voluntarily. It's actually less destructive than the old 38 SPL "widowmaker" round.

Is penetration easily definable and quantifiable? Surely. But penetration doesn't make for a good defense round in and of itself. Think 30-06 FMJ ammo and deer. Will it kill the deer? Surely. Will it stop the deer as quickly as a good Nossler Partition? Not hardly. Which one has more penetration? The FMJ, easily.

Az, I'm with you. I dislike the 40, because of exactly that. The recoil impulse is 'snappy'. I can control it, but it offends my delicate sensibilities :D I'll stick with the 9mm+P or the 45ACP (or the ballistic duplicate, the 45GAP) and leave the 40 to LE.
 
#25 ·
You asked about holsters similar to the CrossBreed SuperTuck, didn't you? May I suggest you also consider the C-TAC or M-TAC holsters at comp-tac.com?

And to start you in your shopping for self-defense ammo in the 9mm caliber, I would like to suggest that you consider Sperry Gold Dot 124gr +P and Corbon DPX.

Good luck!
 
#26 ·
thanks..
Yes the two holsters I have narrowed it down to are the Cross Breed and the C-Tac.
Which one is preferred? People seem to really like the CTAC from what I have read.
 
#27 ·
I have an M-TAC holster which, like the Crossbreed SuperTuck is Kydex on the outside and leather on the inside. I like it, but I've noticed that when I remove my gun the two sides squeeze together a bit, making it harder to reholster. I've been thinking that maybe I should have bought the C-TAC which is Kydex on both sides, and hence keeps its shape.

In any case, the M-TAC (and also the C-TAC) has a great deal of flexibility in letting you adjust the height and cant of the holster; which was good for me because I had to experiment with about a dozen combinations of location, height and cant to find the configuration that worked best for me.
 
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