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Thread: Pistol Lower

  1. #11
    G2 [OP]
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    Hell,
    I can build a nice AR pistol with chf chrome lined barrel for 600 or less....

  2. #12
    Newbie Willy-D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean K. View Post
    I think it's extremely unlikely to get a XCR-L lower for sale by itself though. I got lucky that Nate was willing to part one....and it likely won't technically be a "pistol" lower....but when it's transferred, apparently there's a gray area with ATF RE: if the used lower is transferred as just a lower receiver, the new owner can build it as a pistol even though it may have left the factory as a rifle.
    I don’t think there is a “Gray Area” that you are referring to: according to the BATFE ‘once a rifle, always a rifle’ mandate, hence why folks sell VIRGIN lowers that have not been TRANSFERRED as a RIFLE.

    For instance: my XCR-L left Robinson Arm. As a complete RIFLE. Transferred as a rifle to the previous owner and then transferred to me as a rifle.

    If if I remove the lower and sell it separately it will transfer as a LOWER RECEIVER but is a previous RIFLE serial numbered and transferred lower. Not a virgin lower.

    Hence, buying a stripped or unassembled lower from Robinson Arm. Would transfer as a LOWER RECEIVER which could be assembled as PISTOL or RIFLE and then disassembled and resold as a LOWER RECEIVER again.

    Clear as mud?

    Will

  3. #13
    XCR Guru Sean K.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G2 View Post
    Crap! So basically there are no lowers available pistol or rifle? I’m sure I could convince my ffl that a lower (no stock) was a “pistol” lower and therefore it would get registered as such. All would be well
    Well, used...they aren't ubiquitous. You could buy a virgin lower direct from RA....and then build that however you want.
    "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human liberty. It is the argument of tyrants; the creed of slaves."-William Pitt the Younger

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  5. #14
    XCR Guru Sean K.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willy-D View Post
    I don’t think there is a “Gray Area” that you are referring to: according to the BATFE ‘once a rifle, always a rifle’ mandate, hence why folks sell VIRGIN lowers that have not been TRANSFERRED as a RIFLE.

    For instance: my XCR-L left Robinson Arm. As a complete RIFLE. Transferred as a rifle to the previous owner and then transferred to me as a rifle.

    If if I remove the lower and sell it separately it will transfer as a LOWER RECEIVER but is a previous RIFLE serial numbered and transferred lower. Not a virgin lower.

    Hence, buying a stripped or unassembled lower from Robinson Arm. Would transfer as a LOWER RECEIVER which could be assembled as PISTOL or RIFLE and then disassembled and resold as a LOWER RECEIVER again.

    Clear as mud?

    Will
    No, that's how I understood it too...but my FFL said how it gets checked in and then sold....that's the gray area.

    If you buy a used lower receiver and have no idea of the original configuration of the firearm, then you'd have to go digging with ATF or the mfg to figure it out. And even then, it's pretty stupid b/c the new owner may just want to build a pistol. It's ludicrous (but then all ATF regulations are) that you should have to find a specifically built pistol receiver or buy a "virgin" one from the mfg to do so. Of course, the whole Thompson Contender case (especially in light of the configurability/versatility of the XCR platform) makes the argument that swapping back and forth should be allowed...even if ATF currently doesn't agree.

    Obviously the safest thing to do is buy virgin or definite pistol and go from there.

    I just bought a used XCR configured as a pistol...but I'd bet money the lower was originally on a rifle. It's going to be transferred/shipped as a pistol though....most people wouldn't even know to question it.
    "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human liberty. It is the argument of tyrants; the creed of slaves."-William Pitt the Younger

  6. #15
    Newbie Willy-D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean K. View Post
    No, that's how I understood it too...but my FFL said how it gets checked in and then sold....that's the gray area.

    If you buy a used lower receiver and have no idea of the original configuration of the firearm, then you'd have to go digging with ATF or the mfg to figure it out. And even then, it's pretty stupid b/c the new owner may just want to build a pistol. It's ludicrous (but then all ATF regulations are) that you should have to find a specifically built pistol receiver or buy a "virgin" one from the mfg to do so. Of course, the whole Thompson Contender case (especially in light of the configurability/versatility of the XCR platform) makes the argument that swapping back and forth should be allowed...even if ATF currently doesn't agree.

    Obviously the safest thing to do is buy virgin or definite pistol and go from there.

    I just bought a used XCR configured as a pistol...but I'd bet money the lower was originally on a rifle. It's going to be transferred/shipped as a pistol though....most people wouldn't even know to question it.
    Oh I agree it’s stupid as all get out and makes no sense, but legally there is a tiny GRAY AREA. Once a rifle, always a rifle.

    A person can quickly get themselves into the potential for all sorts of legal trouble for not knowing the status of their weapon, good faith be damned. Look at the BATFE interpretation of “constructive intent” with weapon parts!

    Just because a person can buy it and put it together doesn’t make it LEGAL. (Look at all the suppressor parts sold! Up until the freeze plugs are pressed and that hole is drilled!)

    A quick phone call or email to Robinson Arms will tell a person what the receiver left the factory as.

    “Nobody knows...” only works up until some stupid reason to get your firearm checked for legality (driver had it in a case, going to the range and got rear-ended and firearm was identified and inventoried subject to vehicle being towed....) and then its a possible NFA violation. Or former spouse, disgruntled child turns in family member for “terroristic threats” or “threatening behaviors” (red flag laws) and gets investigated with scrutiny what’s in the gun safe or hobby room.

    Basically it it comes down to YOU DO YOU and DONT DO THE CRIME IF YOU CANT DO THE TIME.

    Ignorance of the law is not a valid legal defense. An email or phone call will tell a person the status of a RA lower when it left the factory.

    What is a GRAY AREA is when a virgin lower is SOLD/transferred and then stays a RECEIVER or PISTOL until TRANSFERRED as a RIFLE and then back to a receiver or pistol. Then no-one REALLY knows for sure as 4473’s stay local (for now...).

    But a RIFLE produced from the manufacturer is ALWAYS a rifle. There is no legal “reset”, there is only misidentification.



    This is an Interesting discussion!

    i know I am going to buy a virgin lower from RA and assemble a 10.5” pistol and keep my RIFLE lower separate.

    The cost of Lower parts add up.

    My SCAR-17 parts are expensive.

    My MCX proprietary parts are expensive (the GEISSELE trigger is $300!)

    But I think I am going to sell off the MCX & SCAR to focus on the XCR.

    I like being local to ROBINSON ARMAMENTS!

    Will

  7. #16
    G2 [OP]
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    I can’t count how many times I’ve been at the range shooting one of my braces pistols and had a local LEO ask about my “SBR”. I keep a copy of the BATF ruling on shouldering braced pistols with me just in case. It’s not worth taking the chance with a questionable lower. All it takes is one asshole and you are in a world of hurt!

  8. #17
    XCR Guru navalbeaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G2 View Post
    I can’t count how many times I’ve been at the range shooting one of my braces pistols and had a local LEO ask about my “SBR”. I keep a copy of the BATF ruling on shouldering braced pistols with me just in case. It’s not worth taking the chance with a questionable lower. All it takes is one asshole and you are in a world of hurt!
    Interesting. I've been going to a couple different ranges for the past 8 years and never had anyone ask for anything. Since I've had my SOT, I've always got suppressors and/or sbrs on hand.

  9. #18
    G2 [OP]
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    Quote Originally Posted by navalbeaver View Post
    Interesting. I've been going to a couple different ranges for the past 8 years and never had anyone ask for anything. Since I've had my SOT, I've always got suppressors and/or sbrs on hand.
    At my old range we had 5 or 6 different departments that utilized the facility. All friendly guys and no one asked me for anything, they would just comment about my sbr. Sometimes when I had Fals there they would walk up to check out the Fals and then comment on the weird stock on my “little rifle” meaning one of my braced pistols. I’ve had local guys approach me to tell me shouldering that brace is illegal.
    Point is, it’s not worth it.
    I can’t comment on your particular experience only mine.

    This was back when I lived in a more metropolitan area....
    Last edited by G2; 09-02-2019 at 06:49 PM.

  10. #19
    XCR Guru Sean K.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by navalbeaver View Post
    Interesting. I've been going to a couple different ranges for the past 8 years and never had anyone ask for anything. Since I've had my SOT, I've always got suppressors and/or sbrs on hand.
    Same here....but I haven't been in years and won't go to avoid such stupid shit.
    G2 likes this.
    "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human liberty. It is the argument of tyrants; the creed of slaves."-William Pitt the Younger

  11. #20
    XCR Guru Sean K.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willy-D View Post
    Oh I agree it’s stupid as all get out and makes no sense, but legally there is a tiny GRAY AREA. Once a rifle, always a rifle.

    A person can quickly get themselves into the potential for all sorts of legal trouble for not knowing the status of their weapon, good faith be damned. Look at the BATFE interpretation of “constructive intent” with weapon parts!

    Just because a person can buy it and put it together doesn’t make it LEGAL. (Look at all the suppressor parts sold! Up until the freeze plugs are pressed and that hole is drilled!)

    A quick phone call or email to Robinson Arms will tell a person what the receiver left the factory as.

    “Nobody knows...” only works up until some stupid reason to get your firearm checked for legality (driver had it in a case, going to the range and got rear-ended and firearm was identified and inventoried subject to vehicle being towed....) and then its a possible NFA violation. Or former spouse, disgruntled child turns in family member for “terroristic threats” or “threatening behaviors” (red flag laws) and gets investigated with scrutiny what’s in the gun safe or hobby room.

    Basically it it comes down to YOU DO YOU and DONT DO THE CRIME IF YOU CANT DO THE TIME.

    Ignorance of the law is not a valid legal defense. An email or phone call will tell a person the status of a RA lower when it left the factory.

    What is a GRAY AREA is when a virgin lower is SOLD/transferred and then stays a RECEIVER or PISTOL until TRANSFERRED as a RIFLE and then back to a receiver or pistol. Then no-one REALLY knows for sure as 4473’s stay local (for now...).

    But a RIFLE produced from the manufacturer is ALWAYS a rifle. There is no legal “reset”, there is only misidentification.



    This is an Interesting discussion!

    i know I am going to buy a virgin lower from RA and assemble a 10.5” pistol and keep my RIFLE lower separate.

    The cost of Lower parts add up.

    My SCAR-17 parts are expensive.

    My MCX proprietary parts are expensive (the GEISSELE trigger is $300!)

    But I think I am going to sell off the MCX & SCAR to focus on the XCR.

    I like being local to ROBINSON ARMAMENTS! ��

    Will
    Meh...I'm not worried about it. The one I bought came with a pistol cap...I can't imagine someone splurging on that unless it came as a pistol.
    Last edited by Sean K.; 09-03-2019 at 06:37 AM.
    "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human liberty. It is the argument of tyrants; the creed of slaves."-William Pitt the Younger

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