[DSM]

Surfing over on (b)arfcom and some reputable folks have posted about another delay, rather lengthy this time, of the ACR. Something about further preparation for military sales. If Bushmaster really is canx'ing backorders and now if this taken as gospel, what is going on over at Bushmaster? If the carbine trials are flubbing an entire company...wow, that's all I have to say, wow. The Lords over there haven't spoken up about yet. Really want to get one when they finally make it to market.

Terra, sharpen your pencils, I think there's fittin' to be some more orders headed your way!

 

[Guest]

ROFLMAO ;D ;D ;D

the Masada vapor rifle is such a joke. the on-going saga of them making for military and police is a load of shit. I cant believe that folks even fall for that crap anymore. everyone knows that the process of choosing a rifle for the military is very tough and rigourous, not to mention the fact that you have to be well connected and well heeled.

the Masada is going thru the same growth pangs as any new rifle design. it will continue to do so for some time as well.

dont count on this thing being any sort of miracle rifle either. it's subject to the same rules of evolution as every other new design.

If you want a reliable assault rifle then get an AK or an AR made by a good manufacturer who's been making them for a while and knows how to do it. that would mean Armalite, Colt, Bushmaster, Arsenal, Chinese, etc.

 

[DSM]

My go-to rifle is still an AR for the simple fact I carried one for a living since the age of 17. I'm most comfortable with it. I worked on them while I was in the service and have built several, including the one mentioned above.
I liked the Masada if for no other reason it was a neat rifle. Me being comfortable and familiar with the AR platform doesn't mean I'm 100% satisfied with it. Why else would I be here?

 

[Nunya_Binnez]

My go-to rifle is still an AR for the simple fact I carried one for a living since the age of 17. I'm most comfortable with it. I worked on them while I was in the service and have built several, including the one mentioned above.
I liked the Masada if for no other reason it was a neat rifle. Me being comfortable and familiar with the AR platform doesn't mean I'm 100% satisfied with it. Why else would I be here?

Ditto.

 

[variablebinary]

I'd be very careful about speaking against Magpul. That will get you banned from many a forum.

...Not this one though >

First, we all know that whole "Military and LEO" first line is nonsense. Magpul designed this thing in their basement, put a couple of rounds through it, and it was proclaimed the latest and greatest. Then reality set in. New guns need to be tested, tooling needs to be purchased, etc etc; do they have the people, process, technology and money to support a new firearm design. Probably not, so they roped in Bushmaster, which I regard as being one of the more inept AR15 makers around

It took Robinson something like 3 years to get the XCR done. The SCAR is up to 5 years. Then there is the teething pains all new designs have. Why magpul thought they could get this thing down in 1 year, or even 2 is beyond me

 

[MickeyC]

I suspect the reality is simpler. They were waiting to see who won the election to decide whether it was worth the cost for establishing tooling to move to mass production or not. I suspect the decision now is to not make the investment. Why spend several hundred thousand dollars tooling for a rifle that may have limited sales.

In 2006 some 150,000 AR clones were released. more then all the other 'options' combined. Civilian sales are the most likely mass appeal for the ACR. With a new election on the books why take the investment risk of tooling for a new product?

Simple business economics.

Magpul cut their development by using STANAG magazine loading and AR15 barrel extensions. This solved the issue of developing a unique magazine and feed path, they could simply copy the AR15 portion of this. By using a stock AR FCG their trigger and safety mechanism development issues were removed. A very smart design. Then by using an aluminium extrusion with body panels they followed the automotive industry by offering different 'skins' for a stock frame. Again very smart. By making the extruded upper their registered receiver, they have made the critical US made part a simple manufacturing process output. Weapon development is not, or at least should not be, their issue.

 

[DSM]

Regardless of personal opinions I think we can all agree it has garnered its share of a cult following.

Bushmaster is a little goofy sometimes, but when you're selling the same product as several dozen other folks you can see where the problem is. I've never had issue with them. Same with Magpul, I think they make good kit although some of it is a little over the top on design and less on function, in my humble opinion of course.

 

[variablebinary]

Regardless of personal opinions I think we can all agree it has garnered its share of a cult following.

Bushmaster is a little goofy sometimes, but when you're selling the same product as several dozen other folks you can see where the problem is. I've never had issue with them. Same with Magpul, I think they make good kit although some of it is a little over the top on design and less on function, in my humble opinion of course.

Not that it matters since the ACR has dropped to Q4 2009 and is slated only for LE/MIL, and requires a redesign due to problems with the internals during sustained fire.

On a side note, Magpul concedes that the SCAR's longer development time has given FN an advantage. Well Durr. Anyone that thought magpul could build a carbine in a few weeks and market it 6 months later was smoking crack.

 

[DSM]

Problems with sustained fire? Does it fall apart or something? First I've heard of that.

 

[variablebinary]

Problems with sustained fire? Does it fall apart or something? First I've heard of that.

Someone on ARFcom called Bushmaster and they flat out said there was a redesign needed for full auto.

Magpul followed with...

Everyone needs to relax and take a deep breath.

Bushmaster/Remington is working to get the ACR to compete in the M4 replacement trials and this will mean additional testing and possiable modification to the design to meet specific requests by the military.

Right now no one knows if or when there will be another ban, but the military request for an M4 replacement is real and the ACR needs to be a part of this. The Masada was a concept built to shake up the industry, with Bushmaster/Remington's help the ACR can take the establishment Euro firearms manufactuers on, head to head.

We will do everything in our power to move the timetable up but the rifle will not be released before it is ready.

 

[DSM]

No, what the deal is with this is just like on the SCAR's selector. Going from SAFE to FA and back again means a change in grip on the AR and 180 degrees of rotation. The goal is SAFE to FA in only 90 degrees of rotation. As best as I understood it from one of their guys awhile back it was something they've wanted to change but using stock AR parts wasn't easy.

I didn't think that it would make much difference when I got my XCR, now I'm spoiled by it...even if it doesn't have the go-fast switch.

 

[i303]

M4 replacement competition?  Ha-ha, what a joke.

What are we up to now for the "stimulus", aka bailout of big companies that even OUR new president and company is wholeheartely saying go-go-go.  What? $760 bil?  Now what programs do you think will get cut in order not to raise taxes?  Just remember what another never served president did to our military some 16 to 8 years ago.

Also this will include almost anything slated for new government programs, positions, and equipment.

I've already told my guys, "See that parking lot of new 2008 trucks and SUV's?  Take care of them because we won't be seeing much of replacement vehicles for who knows how long.

I'm sure this will also include any replacement carbine, the HMMWV replacement, just about anything new.

Well it's funny to see all this crap happening.  BTW, didn't Cerebus (BM/Remington's parent company) run in to some fiscal shenanigans during the "meltdown"?

However if they do manage to get 'er done before the ax (which I doubt) I really only see one company making it, and that is FN with the SCAR.  The G'vmt has rarely allowed any truly competetive contracts having the outcome usually pre-determined.  And even in the instances that they have I've never seen it where the lil company that could end up with the contracts for years to come.  The biggest reason there are competitions is to show that the product does work and the g'vmt can say they were fair.  At least the SCAR shows alot of potential.


Update: I've been out hunting for the past 3 days. I hadn't realized that the bailout is now 5 trillion (is this on top of the already 760B ?). Well anyways, whatever amount they will dream up, and print, will definitely mean the ax to the M4 replacement as well as a bunch of other things. Can you say g'vmt hiring freeze?

 

[sinjin]

... The G'vmt has rarely allowed any truly competetive contracts having the outcome usually pre-determined. And even in the instances that they have I've never seen it where the lil company that could end up with the contracts for years to come. The biggest reason there are competitions is to show that the product does work and the g'vmt can say they were fair. ...

The Big-G also has a history of taking IP from small, innovative companies, who submit it as a competitive bid, and handing it over, gratis, to its favorite high-volume manufacturers. I think Magpul had the right general idea going in with Bushmaster, but it seems as if it's not clear that Bushmaster is big enough and appealing enough, as a volume manufacturer, to catch Uncle Sam's eye, which is all totally aside from the question of whether the ACR is as good as or superior to the SCAR. Does anyone here know if the US military procures rifles from Bushmaster now?

 

[DSM]

There are few Bushies in .mil hands, have seen them floating around. Since they've been purchased by Cerberus they are now classed as a larger company and lose some preference. BM actually has quite a few other .gov agency contracts though, just not in huge numbers like a DoD ticket.

Didn't Cerberus, or however it is spelled, buy out HK too?

 

[Nunya_Binnez]

Didn't Cerberus, or however it is spelled, buy out HK too?

I know about DPMS and Remington. Also Majority interest in Chrysler, fwiw.

 

[Guest]

5 trillion is the new debt ceiling.

 

[variablebinary]

Does anyone here know if the US military procures rifles from Bushmaster now?

Yes, but not for our own use, which is why photos of Bushmasters in military hands are VERY rare. We ship them to allies however. Everyone remembers the AR15's siezed by the Russians during the Georgia conflict