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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I see people posting about the possibility that Obama and the Dems might try to tax ammunition out of reach. It occurs to me that it might be nice to have a gun in the safe that shoots a form of ammunition that might escape such schemes. I'm talking about a weapon that isn't a pistol, but that might shoot a pistol caliber. Maybe a pistol caliber rifle or semi-auto version of a sub-machinegun. Anyone have any recommendations along those lines?

I've had a few thoughts on the subject, and am looking for feedback. The Kriss Super-V is super-sexy, but is also super-expensive and shoots super-expensive ammo. Not sure I'm prepared to spend multi-k-bucks to satisfy this urge. Something that shoots hand-gun ammo seems a good candidate, though, because it seems likely to be given a pass, in the wake of the recent DC related ruling. Something in a relatively large hand gun caliber appeals because it could also be effective as a home defense weapon. While a .22 would be cheap, I'm not sure it would be particularly effective for self defense.
 

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Singin, absolutely no disrespect intended, so please don't think I'm being that way.....

I got some serious education with a SMG quite a while ago. My take on it is that I don't need a SMG. Here's the deal - pistol ammo just isn't powerful. Even the +P Israeli 9mm I was running in an Uzi is underpowered when compared to even the 5.56

And a 200 yard shot with an Uzi isn't cake, where it'd be considered a chip shot with an XCR.

So instead of purchasing a new SMG-type weapon (essentially the same weight, but much shorter range), why not invest that dough in 5.56 bullets and expect to reload the brass you're expending now?

I had very close to this conversation with someone locally here this evening. He was asking me about a rifle, I advocated NOT buying that rifle, but instead buying spare parts for his current rifle, as well as more mags, ammo, and something to carry around the gear other than his bluejean back pockets. Obviously, I knew he didn't have much in some of those categories, and none in other categories, of that.

Not that buying a rifle is a "bad" thing - but why start a second set before he has his first set complete?

Terra has been GREAT about getting me spare parts for my XCRs. I'd advocate filling that weapon set-up (and the "ammo" part is supposed to imply "stacked deep" - even reloading components help!) before moving on.

One complete is better than two "mostly" complete.

Of course, if you're 100% already on your others, please consider this just a statement to the masses ;D
 

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I agree with BRAVO!

It is much better to consolidate on a few weapons instead of getting more weapons. As he says, if you have got yourself 100% covered with your current weapons, then you might consider others.

Terra also has been helping me acquire "spare parts", once I have that finished, I will purchase another XCR for use and for more "spare parts".

I have too many varieties of weapons and I will be getting rid of a lot of my older weapons that were inherited and I no longer have use for. I will (and have) consolidate on a few calibers and weapons and start stockpiling parts and ammo for the "good days" that may be coming after the election. (If the wrong person is elected.)

I carried an MP5 for ten years and could hit in the "kill zone" at 100 yards 99% of the time, and I could hit at further distances, but as the distance increases the stopping power of a pistol cartridge rapidly diminishes. So like Bravo I gave it up for duty use except for specific circumstances.

The bottom line - purchase what you want, but make sure that it will do what you want it to do and then get spare parts and ammo, ammo, ammo and reloading equipment if you so desire.
 

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If you really want a sub gun, get a good AR upper in 9mm with the conv. block and a bunch of mag's. (The Colt mag's work good.) You do have an AR15 I trust, if not... GET ONE! Also, as other's have said, buy alot of ammo now, all you can and make sure it's reloadable brass. You will need to reload if they keep screwing with our rights, so plan on it and make sure you are set up to do so for years to come. Get a shit load of primer's in SR, SP, LR & LP and get a "seal-a-meal" system and seal your powder & primer's, store them in a good military can, and they should last at least 20 years. As you reload use the oldest stuff and replace it with new until you can't get it anymore.
By the way, stick with the 9mm in the AR, the .45 upper's don't work as well, good mag's are hard to come by, and they are not as accurate.
 

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I am building a 9mm upper right now. Not because I feel like I need a Sub Gun, just thought it would be fun. I agree with Bravo, stock up on stuff you need for what you already have. I would rather have 10K rounds of 5.56 than a new gun in some exotic caliber I only have 200 rounds for. :2cents:
 

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In addition to what Bravo said (in my humble opinion, the only advantages to a pistol cal carbine are ammo cost and suppression ability... neither of which I currently consider important enough to want one) I am curious as to why you think any potential ammo tax would not be applied to pistol ammo? 9mm is probably one of (if not the) single most popular "crime" caliber out there. Not that that really matters to the Dems, but it might give them a "good" statistical reason to go for pistol ammo first that was more palatable in the public eye.

I'd think it a slightly safter bet, if any sort of ammo were to avoid any potential tax, it would be components rather than any particular type of loaded ammo. If you don't handload now, start learning how to do it. Once you do, you will have little desire to shoot factory ammo anyway.
 

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Reloading is always a good way to go. As can be .22 kits.

If you're going to do a 9mm AR upper use steel trigger and hammer pins.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Thanks for all of the advice. I don't take offense to any of it, as it was my intention to get a broad spectrum of feedback. With respect to stockpiling ammo, can smokeless powder really store for 20 years, in or out of a cartridge? I've read a few articles about how it chemically breaks down over time, eventually rendering it unstable. I'm just uncertain about how long I can safely store it. We could be in for a long hard winter, if you take my meaning. Certainly an emergency stash of ammo is a reasonable precaution for the purposes of home defense, but is it really feasible to stockpile enough to be able to continue shooting for practice and for fun?

As far as reloading goes, I don't have any experience, but am willing to learn; however, if they decide to tax or ban factory loaded ammunition of all types, why wouldn't they go after bullets, primers, brass and powder, too? I guess I was just speculating that their approach to ammo would be similar to their approach to rifles: ban those that are too similar in function or appearance to those used by the military ( ::)), regardless of their actual functional qualities.
 

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How much do they retail for, do you know?



And speaking of ammo... Alex said something about all imports from Wolf being shut down. Does anyone know about this!? :eek:
 

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I don't think anybody really knows the shelf life of modern ammo. Guys are still shooting WWII surplus no problems. Smokeless powder and primers can last a long, long time. Certainly 30-40yrs, maybe (lots) longer. Any backdoor effort to ban firearms via ammo is going to have to stand the test of Heller, and I doubt it'll fly until there's a change on the Supreme Court.
 

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Properly stored ammo will probably last longer than you will... as stated, lots of people are still shooting lots of WWII surplus that is still on the market. It may not be quite as fresh as it once was, but I doubt anything on the receiving end can tell the difference. I've got a few thousand rounds of .308 from around 1980-81, in sealed battlepacks, and that stuff is still shiny. Looks brand new and shoots just fine. In terms of surplus, it is barely even middle aged.

This is all speculation anyway: while they certainly could go after components as well, I think they would go for all forms of loaded ammo first. Just my own suspicion.
 

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Sinjin:
Here's the short version: 20 years on powder is a cake walk.

Here's something interesting (the long version GRIN). You can do a couple of different tests on powder, to find the rate it's decomposing. The two tests we run are differential scanning coulometry and thermal gravitational analysis. When powder decays, it gives off heat. Think of it as leaves in the forest making not only an insulating layer on the ground, but also providing heat from their decay. Same concept.

We measure that heat. VERY VERY precisely. Doesn't have to be outside the casing for this to happen either. From the amount given off, and the rate, we can tell how old the powder is (as in if it's been stored well or not) and how much of the umph is gone.

From that, we can figure how much velocity decrease we're going to see over an extended period. It's not much, but it does add up. For 20 years, don't sweat the degredation, 'cause you're not looking at even 100 fps (in most cases) if properly stored.

There are some powders that are more stable than others. The newer "high energy" powders are made with a higher percentage nitroglycerine base, which is great if you want velocity - but not so great if you're looking for extreme long-term storage stability. By long-term, I'm talking much longer than 20 years.

Case in point: back in the 80's when I was shooting any caliber that was cheap (GRIN), I bought a bunch of Egyptian 303 Brit ammo. Cupronickel bullets, and loaded with cordite (essentially an early version of powder). I ran that though a beater Mk3, and while a touch soft, had no misfires. The headstamp said 1894 or 1896 IIRC. Still got some at home to show folks that don't believe it's possible LOL!

Is it feasible to stockpile ammo? I'd say yes, personally. But here's where the lessons were learned the hard way......
Back in '92 (I'm pretty sure it was '92 - maybe '94) there was a "primer famine". Everyone was concerned that slimy willy was gonna get his plans pushed through to institute a chemical shelf-life on primers and powder. It was chemically infeasible, but people still horded primers. I didn't shoot much at all for that year, 'cause I couldn't get primers hardly at all. The local shop rationed people to 200 primers per delivery - I'd buy my 200, my father would buy 200, and we'd send my sister in to buy 200 ;-) But sometimes it'd be two or three weeks between deliveries.

After getting caught with my pants down like that, I swore it'd never happen again. I keep between 4000 and 10,000 primers on hand of each kind. UPS delivers powder in maximum quantities of 50 pounds per package - so I get multiple shipments of powder. It's cheaper that way in any case.

I don't live too far from one of the big bullet makers. They wash the bullets when they're done with the forming process, and sometimes they dry with water spots. Those water-spotted bullets go into a "seconds" bin. I've been buying factory seconds like that from them for years. They're not hunting or self defense bullets, but sure do make good practice ammo!

For a couple of years now, I've made it a practice to walk out of chinamart with 1000 rounds of 22LR more than what I intend to use. That gets "stocked". If all I got to shoot was 22LR, it'd still take me four or five years to eat through that....... and it has the non-obvious benefit of making trips to chinamart even less frequent (it's bothersome to walk out with four things AND a K of 22LR LOL!).

FWIW
 

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As long as the ammo stays dry and you avoid rapid temperature changes it stores for a very long time. Decades in fact. If you aren't siure then either get sealed ammo or seal it yourself. By this I mean seal the boxes inside plastic with silica gel and if you want to be anal seal each round with a bullet and primer sealer.

I wouldn't get too excited, if Obama wins it will be a few months before he can start being an asshole.
 

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I beat it will be almost a year until he can get to the weapons and ammo there is a lot more pressing issues he should deal with first but who knows with him he might just take a way our guns the first day after the he gets innaugrated so he can do whatever he wants to us. I dont trust the guy and I never will
 
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