[tk]

As I've said in another thread, I want a semi-auto .308 for long distance paper-punching (600 yards) and have a DSA FAL in my sights (heavy barrel, rails, match trigger, adjustable stock). Before I lay down the money, is there another semi-auto .308 I should consider?

I came close on a PTR, but opted against it because they're so hard on brass, and I'm a reloader.

The M-14 is a great gun, but I like the ergonomics of the FAL better, and match-grade M-14s make the FALs look cheap.

I know it's heresy, but I've never been a fan of the AR-15 (the direct impingement system is a brilliant idea, but leaves a lot to be desired in day-to-day use). Although the ergonomics are generally great, I hate the placement of the cocking handle. But I've read that the platform is inherently more accurate tha the FAL, and since I'm not planning on being a desert sniper, maybe the AR's shortcomings aren't very relevant (although I do live in Florida, which is a giant sandbox).

OTOH, I'd prefer a piston-drive AR, but ... then I'm back up to the cost of the FAL and the parts are non-standard. And I've also read comments to the effect that the AR platform doesn't stand up to the .308 as well as rifles designed for this round from the ground up.

Yes, the XCR-M would be perfect, but it doesn't exist yet, and Congress will have plenty of time for mischief before it comes to market.

So, is a .308 AR worth considering? If so, which one would you look at? And can I get 1 MOA with a FAL that has a free-floating match barrel?

thanks for the comments

tk

 

[aziator]

I have beard nothing but good things about the Super Sass system and there are guys on here that can chime in that actually own them. If I had the :2cents: I would get a POF.

I have confidence that the XCR will be available before the gov can make any formal changes. You have the think, by the time a new pres is sworn in, congress writes a bill, NRA fights it, congress passes it, pres signs it, it is going to be a while.

 

[Bravo]

It really depends on what kind of shooting at 600 you're doing - THAT should make your mind up as to what kind of rifle you get.

I was 'in' on the M25 design from a long time ago. That's the route I went. But then again, back when I did that, my M25 was cheap.

One of the guys I know decided to do the same thing with an FAL. It didn't work.

If you question whether an FAL can be built to spotter / designated marksman potential, then give a call to Mark Graham at Arizona Response Systems (one of the better FAL builders in the US in my opinion) - he'll tell you the same too.

One of the things I don't like about MY FAL is the adjustments on the rear sight. Not precise. If you slide it to 600, it depends on your ammo as to where it'll hit. 600 is NOT 600 with M118LR. I've been extremely tempted to purchase one of the DSA lowers with the M16A2 rear sights. If you're in it for precision, that's the first place to start. Then again, I thought about going with that lower set up for the para stock - and dough was the reason I haven't done it yet.

Both the M14 and the FAL can be scoped, both suck in my opinion (and remember, I'm one of the biggest proponents of the M25 you're gonna find - I dragged mine through basic and advanced sniper courses).

If you're wanting just 'connect with a siloughette at 600', both will do. If you're looking for 'minute of mansized chest', then you want more accuracy than the FAL will hold (again, IME / IMO).

Now for the other two.

The HK/PTR is a good stick, but it works against the rifleman. The factory drum sights only go to 400 meters, and the trigger is anything but productive. One of my buddies is in the Dutch military, and he's been issued the HK for quite a number of years. He's tried everything in the world to get the scope to work on it, and finally came up with the only thing that seems to work: weld a base to the receiver and refinish. Everything else in his experience winds up shooting loose over time. Even the 'sniperized' version of the HK - the PSG - isn't quite up to M25 standards of accuracy.

The M14 and FAL are only marginally better in this regard (I figured out how to keep the ARMS mounts in tact and working back just after they were initially refused by the military).

Now for the ratgun. The AR can be extremely - let me rephrase that - EXTREMELY accurate. Reliable and durable, no so much. One of my mentors was given a bunch of SR25 (the KAC version) to evaluate for the DM rifle. His green-beanies broke 'em all quick, and they couldn't be repaired. He nicknamed them "POS9000". So what do we use? We use them! Why? Because they're available. That's really it. I asked why they didn't just rebuild more M14s into M25s, and he said it's 'cause the parts supply has dried up. But other than that, the POS9000 (er, AR10 types) scope WELL. That's a major consideration for this kind of rifle.

Also, as far as the heavy barrel goes, I wouldn't do it again. My M25 has a heavyweight Kreiger turned by Gene Barnett. Headshots at 600 are cake. Next time, I'd go with a GOOD barrel in GI contour. Much lighter, much more agile. And a good GI contour barrel is just as accurate as a good heavy barrel - for the first few shots. And aren't the first few the most important at 600? A heavy barrel on an SR25 feels like a plow - FAR too heavy up front, no weight for balance in the aft.

In other words, there's no "ideal" rifle for this application.

I've kept my HK91 and FAL, but FOR ME the best battle rifle is the M14. The only thing that'll get me off of my M14s, is the XCR-M. All the benefits of the POS9000, without the 'bad sides'.

FWIW

 

[dont_tread_on_me]

Very nice summery Bravo.It's great to have members with real world experience.I have a ptr-91 and have used a mount that I found carried by D.S.A..I think it was roughly $120 bucks,but it works I just recently used blue loctite on the mounting screws,just for good measure ,but it had never worked loose before that.The only things I dislike is the magazine release,and no bolt lockback on empty.It dose what I ask of it and I guess that's all I can expect from an older design.

 

[aziator]

Good rundown Bravo, next time I am out in Cedar we need to meet up and go shoot whistlers and jacks.

 

[gunner69]

tk, You didn't say if you were using iron sights or optics. If you are going "irons" then the M14/M1A is the rifle for you. You can find, or reload, the load of choice for it. Then make out a range card to attach to the stock with the number of "clicks" needed for "X" yards. The M1A sits the Optics up high where you need a cheek rest to feel comfortable.

If you go FAL then DSA makes a SA58/FAL A2 Hampton receiver (used AR-12 adjustable sites) with fixed or folding stock. Stock FAL irons suck bigtime for long range shooting. After what I read, sometime back, I would get it in 6.5 Credmore or .260 Rem. (thats a 6.5 bullet in a .308 case). Both those shot flat and has great ballistics.

If I were to choose an AR style rifle I think I would check out the DPMS Panther LR in 6.5 Credmore (if I reloaded) or their .260 Remington. If you prefer it in .308 they have that too. http://www.dpmsinc.com
There are several good makers of ARs in .308 out there.

 

[Bravo]

Aziator, that sounds good! I've been feeling a "need" to work up a load using those 110VMAX bullets ;-)

One of by buddies hit a big chuck (where he's at) estimated between 20 and 25 pounds. It 'ruptured' and flew 5 feet into the air. The bullet never left the carcass, just exploded. I picked up 500 of those little bullets - I was that impressed.

DTOM: I love shooting against the HK 'super rifle'. After beating them by a wide margin, I get to explain "and to think, you could buy three or four of my rifle for the same price as you paid for yours". The Missouri state police has a bunch of 'em (or at least they did some years back) and NONE of 'em would outshoot the M25.

My best friend bought one of the DPMS Panthers in 260. He brought it out to the advanced sniper course (as a "for fun" rifle between segments, he ran an FN SPR for the course) - it hits "out there" quite well. But it has the same problem as the SR25 as far as being front-heavy. So much so, a week ago he said it was up for sale. We both agree it'd be a BAD day if we had to hump that pig.

As for the M14 and FAL, we also agreed - they're better as iron sighted weapons, not scoped weapons. He traded off his M21 on a FN PBR, some ammo, and a good bit of cash.

For optics, the long range solution is a ballistic drop compensator. Work up a good load with Varget (assuming 308) and the 175SMK / 168AMAX / 178AMAX and measure the drops REAL WORLD. Not "the software says" or "the book says", but "MY load in MY rifle says". Give that data to the BDC cutter and drop the BDC on your scope. For a LONG time, I've run the Leupold Mk4 M3. If I were doing it today, I'd recommend a S&B PMII instead. If the S&B is "out of price range", then the Nightforce would still be my pick over the Leupold. Of course, when I did this, there wasn't a Nightforce or S&B PMII. Once that's done, it's literally a matter of ranging to XYZ yards, then dial X50 yards, and let fly. As in a target ranged at 780 yards would be dialed to 750 and 'favor high'.

Works GREAT.

That's for a spotters / DM rifle. For a 'just hit to 600' rifle, I'd recommend a 1-4X variable with a red dot.

But like I said, the only way I'd move from a rack grade M14 is for an XCR-M

 

[DSM]

I've got a Armscorp rcvr'd/USGI parts gun M14 I had Phil Arrington look over and tweak toward the Smith Enterprise style M14 rifles they put out. Great shooter. Has a factory SA medium contour barrel. Shoots every bit as good as I need it to and the extra little weight from the barrel keeps the recoil down since it has the GI plastic stock. It probably won't win a match by any means but my goal was for it to shoot better than a couple MOA and I'd be happy as a pig in you know what! And it does that with cheap surplus ball. The handloads I run have all been slightly over an inch. Cheap mags for right now. Spare parts are a little pricey but a lot of 'smiths that can really tune these rifles are around.

I bought an Armalite SASS awhile back and it is a tank. It weights every bit as much as a custom built Remington I've got. Recoil is absolutely all but non-existent, just a little push. Accuracy has been great and better than MOA. Our range only goes out to 600 but it bangs steel easily enough out that far that it gets boring....almost! Mags get a little pricey here though. Spare parts are realtively easy to get and not too terribly expensive, depending on what you want.

 

[gunner69]

Bravo, I assume tk won't be humping the rifle with combat load. > Maybe you can hook him up with your friend who has the .260 Rem? ??? tk could work up a nice 120gr or 140gr bullet to take out his 600 yard boogiemen. :2cents:

tk, get hold of Bravo and go for that .260 his buddy has. He has seen the weapon in question and it probably has the goodies you want. If 600 yards is max, like Bravo said, the Millet 1-4 circle/dot scope will hammer hell out of about anything. ;D ;D

 

[cavegeo]

Hey TK we need to hook so you can try my SA 58, I recently converted it to a Para Model with the Hampton lower that uses A2 sight. After having use the stock sight for several years I really love having the A2 sight now.

Again the FAL is by no means a sniper rifle but it is a true Battle Rifle and can make reasonable long range shots.

 

[tk]

Let's do it!

The next three-gun match is on 10/18 at PMRPC, so if you want to come down for that, fine. If not, I'll meet you in Orlando. Just tell me what works.

tk

 

[EricCartmann]

I never thought the AR-10 argument vs. M14 was a fair argument.

Fair argument would be M14 vs. the Long bow.

There is a mod over in the ebrsopmod forums who served in Afganistan with the Canadian military and he swears by the AR-10.

 

[EricCartmann]

Here are some things you should know about the M1A:

- funky oprod design, one hot round and say hi to a bent oprod and bye bye to your $1800 M1A.

- funky way to secure the oprod to the reciever. see that little notch where the oprod slides into the reciever? the rifle is dependent on this tab on the oprod for the whole operation of the rifle. if the tab were to wear out it's bye bye rifle.

- funky bolt design. See that little roller on the bolt? Another useless invention that the Garand does not have. If that roller breaks, it is impossible to replace. See that the extractor and the way it is secured? Yes the extractor can jump out of the bolt.. and has.

- hard to manufacture. Look at all the little parts and specialty parts.

- spare parts non existent. You can't even find M14 parts anymore. These days bolts go for $200 if you can find it! You basically can get an entire FAL parts kit with barrel, stock and all for about $250.

- not easy to scope, every scope mounting technique is a micky mouse job. The M1A seems to just want to twist the mount off. Also have you seen the price for those ugly Smith mounts? $300! Crazy I tell you, it is like you are paying a tax stamp for the right to scope. The others are easy to scope. AR-10's comes with a flat top. FAL's has the DSA mounts that slide in and stay put.

- cheek weld is non-existence if you run a scope.

- not modular, hard to service (need a smith the change the barrel), need special tool to work on the bolt.

- stock has no bedding. It is no secret it takes about 40 rounds for the M1A action to settle into a USGI stock. Wood stocks settle in faster, but then it's wood.

- no pistol grip. There is a reason why every modern rifle has a pistol grip.

 

[Bravo]

I started to go through the previous two posts and reply in a line-per-line statement. Then I thought better of it.

I'll leave it at this: there are a lot of things in the previous two posts that vary somewhere between blatant falsehoods and opinion.

And the opinion parts don't seem to be based on anything other than wishful thinking and hearsay.

There are some facts mixed in - the difficulty is differentiating which ones are facts, which ones are opinions, and which ones are flatly false. Also, some of the factual bits are presented in such a way as to be misleading.

Proceed at your own risk.

 

[gunner69]

Have to agree with Bravo on this. Eric, I agree that scoped an M-14/M1A does set high.... use a add on cheek rest. For iron sights the M-14 is a direct decendent of the M-1 Garand. "The finest implement of war ever designed".... Springfield Armory sells an accurized version for around $1,500.00 wholesale in Shotgun News. It comes bedded. They also service the rifles they sell. For long rage shooting, with iron sights, there is NO BETTER rifle. I love my FALs but when it comes to long range shooting my M1A is my choice. :2cents:

 

[tk]

You guys rock!

There's just no substitute for guidance from people who have been there, and done that.

Some comments on the posts above:

-- I sure hope I'm not gonna have to be hauling it around the field. I'm in pretty good shape, but I'm 49 and a civilian. If I'm humping any rifle around in full gear, things will have really gone to shit <g>

-- I've already got a 6.5 kit on order from Robinson (and if it takes a couple of more months to get it right, fine with me). I really like the platform. REALLY like it. And if I was certain that the XCR-M would make it to market, I'd hold out for one of those. That would give me .30-30, 5.56, 6.5 and .308; Good enough to handle long, medium and short range, defensive and hunting (not that I need to do much of either). The 6.5 and the .260 are almost identical ballistically, aren't they?

-- Bravo: That's one gorgeous scope. That price could give me a coronary. The NRA competition at my range is for iron sights, but I'm definitely in the market for a scope for the rifle. I appreciate your assessment that there is no ideal rifle in this area. A couple of our compatriots here have offered to let me shoot their FALs, and I'll see if I can get some time with an M1 at my range (maybe I can find a piston-driven .308 AR at one of the matches, too).

-- I'm not trying to tweak Alex or anything like that, but if I were in his shoes, I don't think I'd move ahead with the XCR-M given the political climate. If McCain wins, maybe we're safe. But another idiotic Assault Weapons Ban and the market will dry up. They won't leave holes in this one. Now, I think Heller will eventually get it overturned (Truth be told, I think most of the NFA is out the window is anyone challenges it). But it will take a long time. Don't get me wrong, I think the XCR is a helluva design. I think my XCR-L is the finest rifle I've ever owned, and Robarms makes them "the way guns used to be made." I'd buy an XCR-M in a heartbeat. But there will be new opportunities to sell the XCR-L to the military in the next year or two. If I were Alex, that's where I'd focus my resources, because that's where the ROI will be.

-- Eric: You make some great posts, and I enjoy reading your stuff, but... You take the longbow, I'll take the M1A. Won't even be close.

 

[Bravo]

-- I sure hope I'm not gonna have to be hauling it around the field. I'm in pretty good shape, but I'm 49 and a civilian. If I'm humping any rifle around in full gear, things will have really gone to shit <g>

Gotcha. If you're looking at semi-auto range work without regard to field work, then the AR10 is a difficult act to follow. One of the guys I know and highly respect - George Gardner of GAP - built an AR10 in 260. It outshot his boltguns (by his statement and others accounts) and his boltguns are usually sub-sub-sub-MOA. He and I were going to go to the same advanced long range precision course to compare his AR10 against my M25 (GRIN) but divorce kept that from coming to fruition. Of course, an AR10 will throw you out of service rifle and into match rifle...... If that matters.

-- [...] The 6.5 and the .260 are almost identical ballistically, aren't they?

Not even close. The 6.5 is a short, stubby case. Think 7.62X39 volume. The 260 is a 308 necked down to 6.5mm so it's not only significantly longer but significantly fatter as well. One of my great good friends runs a George Gardner custom 260 based on an AR10 - it's a good round. They do best with the mid-weight bullets (123 grain range) - his will put them THROUGH the steel targets. My long range boltgun is in 6.5X55 - think 30-06 necked down to 6.5, and shortened halfway between 30-06 and 308. The 6.5X55 runs the heavies (139 to 142 grainers) WELL in a modern action (Winchester model 70) - but those loads aren't "approved" for the older Mausers so you won't find them in the mass reloading manuals. Another of my buddies runs a Iron Brigade Armory custom 6.5X284 - 30-06 case capacity necked to 6.5mm. The 6.5X284 is a laser of amazing flatness. My X55 runs the same bullets about 150 fps slower, and the 260 runs the same bullet about 200 fps slower than my X55. The 6.5 Grendel gets the velocity from lowering the bullet weight and running the chamber pressures up. Nothing wrong with that in and of itself - but the 260 will do anything the Grendel can, and not even start to breath hard when the Grendel is running out of steam.

If you were to offer me the choice of a 6.5 Grendel conversion kit for the -L, or a 260 conversion kit for the -M, I'd take the 260 kit hands down. So much so that I've pretty much given up on the -L conversion in wait for the -M debut.

-- A couple of our compatriots here have offered to let me shoot their FALs, and I'll see if I can get some time with an M1 at my range

I love the FAL. Good rifle, no questions. I'm not selling mine, and that's a fact. Like I said before, with the M16A2 rear sight lower, that ought to passify the biggest of my complaints. One of the guys that showed up to a battle rifle course brought his FAL. He was on his 2nd barrel, and KNEW the thing. Couldn't shoot expert with it though. He had GREAT form, and was doing everything right. Another of the instructors had a Ron Smith tweeked M1A, and gave it to the FAL shooter with the admonition to do absolutely nothing different - just shoot it. First attempt with the M1A, he shot expert with room to spare. The FAL is (arguably) the best battle rifle out there - but it's not the most accurate from field positions.

In other words, we've gone full circle - it depends on what job you want done as to what tool would best fit your job ;D

 

[gunner69]

Bravo has this covered.........

 

[EricCartmann]

i am not an M14 hater. I love the M14 just like all ancient weapons of the past, such as the long bow, a stone ax, and staws that shoot poisened darts.

i was going to answer line by line, but all i got say is proceed at your own risk.

 

[dont_tread_on_me]

Bravo I read today that the 6.5/284. is replacing some of the 300 and 338 magnums in 1000 yard competitions.I still say that ballistic co-efficient of the 6.5 projectile is damn near ideal for long range work,because it is heavy/long for caliber,and retains it's energy and velocity longer than stubbier less aerodynamic projectiles.