XCR Forum banner
1 - 13 of 13 Posts

· Premium Member
1,047 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This isn't so much a political question but since the general discussion section is already so full I thought I'd post this question here.

Does anyone know any stories or have links to stories where an assault rifle was used by a civilian for self-defense (home defense)? It would be very interesting to see a story where some burglar/'bad guy' broke into someones house and was killed/repelled by the home owner using an assault rifle.

· Registered
6,835 Posts
My normal searching didn't yield any results but I have an email into a guy that should know of any instances.

· Premium Member
1,047 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Also, just to clarify, I mean in the US specifically. I realize that there are some very cozy places on earth where this is a daily occurrence.

· Registered
447 Posts
Two morals to that story:

"Every self-defense shooting I've run across with a Class III weapon, however justified, has at the very least ended with the shooter facing a grand jury."


Some form of communication with authorities, such as a cell phone, should be your first line of defense.

· Premium Member
1,047 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
There was a case in florida recently where 4 home invaders broke into a house with 3 or 4 students living there. One of the students shot one of the robbers with an ak iirc.

I think it's in here somewhere http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/news_local_orlandocrime/home_invasion/index.html
Sounds like this one: http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/news_local_orlandocrime/2007/12/one-suspect-dea.html

Doesn't say what kind of rifle though. Here is one of the comments to the article:

Maybe none of you know anything- I know all of these kids and I am a respectful law abiding citizen. They are not scum, they are normal teenagers who make mistakes sometimes, but are trying to make it in life. My family took in one of those suspects and he lived in our home for quite some time- he is a good kid who hasn't had much of a chance in life and has a worthless family who pretty much abandoned him at the age of 14. He has had to raise himself with no money and no home - he had to drop out of school to work odd jobs to live. He was smart and a hard worker- he studied hard to get his GED, his drivers license, and just passed the test to get in to the military - he was trying to find a chance at life, since he could not afford to go to college. He desperately wanted to make something of himself, but didn't have a lot of social or professional skills, from lack of training and guidance. Maybe if we focused on providing education for these kids instead of putting the ones who don't have money out on the streets to educate themselves- maybe if the schools didn't automatically write them off as losers and trouble makers- maybe if we focused more on helping them than the rich kids who automatically have a chance at life- just maybe they wouldn't be so likely to get in with the wrong crowds and end up in jail at such a young age. Maybe if the law cracked down harder the first time, it wouldn't be "normal" for college apartments to be full of drugs and guns. Yes, the kid who got killed was involved in some things he shouldn't have been, but what you don't know is that the home owner was also involved in drug dealings with him for quite some time. AND the other 2 guys that are now in jail for his homicide were not even involved in any of the scandal- they didn't have "hoodies and guns blazin". This wasn't a home invasion - there was no break in! The other guys were sitting in the car and only ran up the stairs when they saw their friend get shot to get him and take him to the car. Why doesn't everyone look at the facts for a second- maybe go to the apartment if you really want to know-you will see all of the many bullet holes through the door where the homeowner continuously shot over and over- at someone standing outside the door- not in self-defense. Even the door of the apt across from him has bullet holes. How could these be through the door if the guy who died broke in "guns blazing and all" - wouldn't they be in the house? And if you also watch the news video of the apartment, you would see if 3 guys were at the door, they would all be dead from the bullet holes. All of the neighbors testified that the 2 guys that are now in jail were in the car the whole time. AND why don't we worry about why the homeowner had 4 pounds of drugs (that is the facts) and weapons in his house that he feels comfortable shooting at someone who pisses him off?!?! The guy who died absolutely should not have been involved in drug dealings and there are risks and consequences associated with that lifestyle - but the home owner should also be charged for his murder since he knew exactly who he was, he was also involved in the drug dealings, and there was NEVER a break in. Someone's child in the other apt could have been killed and you are living in a community where drugs and guns are running rampant- but that is okay. Don't be so quick to believe a news report that has no facts except what they initially reported before getting all of the facts. What about innocent until proven guilty?

· Registered
2,200 Posts
Nowday's you can shoot someone with a MUZZLE LOADER and the media will try to crucify you. Cover your ass.... make the phone calls, etc. If you do shoot some poor bastard intruder make sure they are armed and INSIDE your residence. Best they DIE so no lawsuite happens. Any after action statements you make can be used to FRY you. Have your lawyer PRESENT before making ANY statements. That's why Lawyers are paid big bucks..... they SAVE your ASS. :2cents:

· Registered
448 Posts
Magitbullet linked it already, however;

A little back ground on that one. I've met Gary Fadden. He is the "other" nephew of my aunt (my uncle's wife sister's son-as in not a blood relative). I met Gary right after the incident and I before the trial. He came out to WA just for a short vacation/get away from death threats by slain biker pals. The trial was BS but as you read the story you'll see why, and where it happened. Even A-boob titles the incident as road rage, but it could not be proven in court that the bad guys targeted Gary believing that they could steal/ransom some full auto's from him at the time. At the time Gary worked for H&K (hence my knowledge about Ach und kay and thier 'fuck you attitute'. They sorta helped, some, but read the story):

"F you and your high powered rifle!" The Gary Fadden incident - The Ayoob files
American Handgunner, March-April, 2004 by Massad Ayoob

Situation: A road-rage incident escalates into a deadly pursuit.

Lesson: Keep communications as handy as your gun. Bad guys fear resolutely armed people, not weapons. Remember that full auto can stop a fight--but start an indictment.

It's amazing how often a criminal will say something unbelievably stupid just before he forces a decent citizen to kill him. For many years I've been piecing together a book subtitled "Famous Last Words of Scumbags." The working title will come from the most memorable such incident: "F*** You and Your Automatic Rifle!"

The shooter was Gary Fadden. The incident took place some 20 years ago. Only now is Gary comfortable speaking of it, in hopes that others may learn from lessons that cost him very deeply.

The Incident

Sunday, February 24, 1984, approximately 2 PM. Gary Fadden, 26, and his lovely 22 year old fiancee are driving from a birthday party in Martinsburg, WV, into Virginia to look at some property for what they hope will be their starter home after their marriage. It's a bitterly cold day, and with the winter coats in the back of a new '84 Ford F-250 supercab 4WD diesel pickup, the Pendleton-clad Fadden looks from a distance like a harmless Yuppie. That means he and the pretty brunette look like prey to another kind of person.

Heading east on Rt. 50, they are passed by a Harley-Davidson motorcycle with two people astride, the operator cutting in front of him so sharply that he has to brake suddenly. Gary comments to his fiancee how cold they must be riding a bike on a low 30s day, and that driving as carelessly as he is, the cyclist needs to worry about sudden patches of ice.

A few minutes later, he spots a Chevy pickup in his rearview mirrors. It contains three people. One passenger is gesturing to him to pull over. Gary doesn't know what these scruffy guys want and he ignores them. But then he sees the passenger waving a knife, and the driver bringing up a revolver.

Gary says to his fiancee, in what will probably be the understatement of his life, "We've got a bit of a problem here."


It is 1984, long before the universal coming of cell phones, and there is no other communications in the vehicle. They are entering Middleburg, a town of perhaps 800, and stop at a red light. Behind them, Gary can see both males exit their truck and run toward him. The driver's hand is actually on Gary's door handle when he pops the clutch and sends his new truck screeching through the intersection against the light. The two men run back to their older pickup, and the chase is on.

They're almost on his bumper. Gary accelerates, hitting open road now, zig-zagging between reaching 95 miles an hour when the speed governor cuts in. Not only are the pursuers keeping pace but he sees the driver aiming a revolver at him out his window. Honking his horn and flashing his lights when he runs into a cluster of automobiles, passing them sometimes on the shoulder of the road and spraying rooster-tails of gravel, Gary still cannot elude the truck behind him.

Gary is desperately looking for a police car he can flag down. He doesn't see one. The chase has gone for 22 miles now and they're getting into a more compact area again. Coming up is an intersection tic knows well: he goes through it every day on his way to work. Even on Sunday it will be clogged. He forms a plan quickly: if the light is in his favor, he'll go through it and keep going, hoping to find police in a more populated area. If the light is against him, he'll turn right, and make for the plant where he works on Chantilly Road.

The light stays red. Gary cuts hard right, heading for what he hopes will be the sanctuary of the workplace. Behind him, he can see that the pursuers haven't given up an inch. "I've got my pass card through the gates and the front door," he tells his fiancee urgently. "We'll get into the building and we can hide. They can't find us. We'll call the cops from there."

He pulls into the front area of the plant, the automatic mechanism taking an achingly long time to raise the gate. As the gate opens, the pursuing truck comes to a stop behind his, both men jumping out and running to Gary's Ford, their hands clawing at his door handles. He guns the engine and gels away from them, sweeping up to the front door and locking up the brakes in a skid.

The plant is Heckler and Koch.

Gary Fadden is a salesman for HK, and among the rest of their firearms, he sells machine guns. In the truck with him is a competitor's weapon he has acquired to test, a Ruger AC556, the selective-fire assault version of the .223 Mini-14. He grabs it now as he throws open the truck door, hoping to hold them off at gunpoint. lie knows his fiancee can't make it to the building's door now, and he screams to her to get down on the floor of the Ford.

The Shooting

The passenger is running toward him, an average size man in ratty clothes with stringy hair, a long beard, and an expression of absolute rage.

The selector switch and manual safety of the AC556 are in two different locations. Gary has not yet fired this weapon and, though he has taken off the safety, he doesn't know whether the switch is set for semi, three-shot burst, or full auto. He yells "Stop or I'll shoot," points the muzzle upward, and pulls the trigger for a warning shot.

The weapon is set on full automatic. Everything is going into deep slow motion, and Gary is aware that the Ruger spits a burst of nine shots before he can get his finger back off the trigger.

There is no effect whatsoever. The attacker is still running at him, perhaps ten yards away and closing fast, reaching for knives at his belt with each hand. The assailant screams, "F*** you and your high powered rifle! I'm gonna kill you motherf***ers!"

And Gary Fadden has run out of time. He lowers the Ruger, points it at the charging knifer, and pulls the trigger one more time. in the ethereal slow motion of profound tachypsychia, Gary can see the spent .223 shells arcing lazily out of the mechanism. He stops the burst, aware that six shots have been fired, as the man in front of him falls heavily to the ground.

Gary moves quickly, putting a big brick planter between himself and the onrushing pickup as cover. The truck stops and the driver, the larger of the two bearded men, shrieks. "F*** you! You killed one of the brothers! You shot him, you motherf***er!" Gary's weapon is level and ready, but this time instead of waving the revolver, the man looks as if he's trying to hide it in the cab of his truck. Gary can see now that the third person in the truck, the one who has always stayed in the cab, is a woman.

And then, the police are there. "They've got guns," Gary shouts to the officers disgorging from two patrol cars. He sets his rifle down and steps back as the officers swarm the pickup truck, taking the surviving man and woman into custody. In a moment, a cop is standing with Gary. "I did it," Gary says. The cop answers, "Did what?" "I shot that man." The officer picks up the AC556. "It's loaded," Gary warns, "Do you want me to unload it'?" The policeman answers. "No, I'll do it. Why don't you sit down?"

Gary Fadden sits on the curb. For a moment, it seems as if the whole bizarre nightmare is over. Unfortunately, it has only begun.


The man he had shot. Billy "Too Loose" Hamilton, was dead. He had been hit by all six rounds of Winchester 55 grain FMJ, headstamped "'WCC81." One bullet had struck behind the lateral midline in the instant that he turned away from the gunfire, taking out a chunk of his spine as is skidded across his back from side to side. This would be interpreted later by the prosecutor as having been "shot in the back."

The partner, who went by the name of "Papa Zoot," had gotten his weapons out of his hands by the time police arrived. In the front of the five-year-old Chevy pickup that had chased Fadden for more than 20 miles, police found a .22 auto pistol and a four-inch Smith & Wesson L-frame .357 Magnum. The revolver had three live and three empty cartridges in the cylinder. More fired brass was on the floor, and a plastic bag with more live amino was open on the seat. Though Fadden heard no shots and no bullets hit his truck, he was convinced then and now that they were shooting at him during the chase.

Hamilton's two knives, a Schrade folding hunter and a nondescript fixed blade, were found with his corpse.

Gary Fadden was arrested that night and charged with 1st degree murder. His family raised $60,000 bail. He hired DC attorney Gerry Treanor to defend him. Treanor, at Gary's request, retained John Farnam and I as expert witnesses. Today, Gary remembers, "Two prosecutors wouldn't touch it until the third took it. It was all political because of the automatic weapon."

The weeklong trial took place in October of 1984. Word had reached Gary that Papa Zoot had bought a .30/06 rifle and sworn a "blood oath" to kill him. I was driving toward Fairfax County when I got the message from Gary's lawyer that John and I wouldn't be needed because the prosecution had self-destructed.

On the stand, Papa Zoot and the woman had testified that Gary had tried to run their biker brother off the road, and they had just followed 22 miles to get his license tag. Defense lawyer Treanor took them apart on cross-examination. An undercover detective broke his cover to testify that the deceased and Papa Zoot "put a bomb in my car. They like to rough people up." The prosecutor made such a show of waving the machine gun that the judge made a point of instructing the jury that the death weapon had nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not the shooting was self-defense. The jury learned that Gary purchased the AC-556 personally and that it was perfectly legal to possess the weapon.

By the start of trial, the charge had been dropped to second-degree murder, and as the trial collapsed around the prosecutor's ears, he offered a plea to manslaughter, which Gary flatly rejected. At the end, when it was announced that the jury had found Gary Fadden Not Guilty on all counts, Fadden recalls that the self-same prosecutor snapped--in open court, in front of Gary's mother--"'You've let a murderer loose!"

"'H&K protected me," says Gary. "They picked up the tab for about half of my legal bills, and got all the publicity for it, until I quit a few years later. Florian Deltgen (at that time CEO at HK) told me after an argument with the vice president that one or the other of us probably had to go, and the vice president wasn't going anywhere. I accepted a job offer from Beretta USA and then resigned from H&K. Deltgen stuck me with the remaining bill, which I paid off at 10% interest." The bill had amounted to more than $45,000. Gary was 34 years old before he had paid everything back.

Dr. Deltgen is no longer with Heckler and Koch.


Have communication. In 1984, only the rich had phones in their cars. Today, Gary Fadden is never without a charged-up cell phone. He knows that if he'd had one that day he could have called the police, who would have been able to interdict his pursuers before the thing became a killing situation.

Flight can trigger pursuit. Prey that flees inflames the pursuit instinct of predators. This is why we teach our children never to run from snarling dogs. Gary Fadden did what society told him to do when facing criminals: he ran. They chased. By the time they caught up with him, Billy Hamilton was in such a rage to kill that he could not be deterred.

Understand how deterrence really works. Papa Zoot and Too Loose had guns and amino and knives in their truck with them. In Gary's truck were a Remington Nylon 66.22 rifle (for plinking, and never touched during the incident), a 9mm HK VP70Z pistol, and the AC556 with enough amino for perhaps tour full magazines. None were loaded at the start. The pistol was loaded and placed in the console during the chase, and the rifle was at that point loaded and placed conspicuously on the dashboard by Gary in hopes that it would deter file pursuit. It did not.

When Gary Fadden stepped out of his new Ford at the climax of the chase, most of us would have seen him as an intimidating presence. The man stands six feet eight and weighed 260 pounds at the time, and he was holding a machine gun. His pursuers were unimpressed.

Later identified as belonging to one of the "big four" outlaw motorcycle clubs, Too Loose and Papa Zoot were members of an armed subculture themselves. They did not fear guns. Zoot was about 6'4" and 240 himself, and neither man feared big guys dressed like something off the cover of an L.L. Bean catalog. It is critical to understand this: Criminals don't fear guns. Criminals fear resolutely armed men or women they believe will actually shoot them.

22 miles of running away from them had left these wolves convinced that they were dealing with a large sheep, not the sharp-fanged sheepdog Gary Fadden turned out to be. Testimony that "they liked to rough people up" shows that they had a lot of ego invested in brutalizing others. Perhaps Hamilton, in his last moment on earth, took Fadden's warning burst as an indication of unwillingness to shoot him. Toxicology screen after death showed Hamilton to have a .19% blood alcohol content. This is a level of intoxication consistent with inhibitions being at their lowest. Gary Fadden sums it up today, "The mouse had run, and the cat was loose. Physical size was no deterrent. The gun was no deterrent with these people. If you pull a gun, you'd better be ready to use it."

Politically incorrect "assault weapons" make politically incorrect defendants. Though he didn't say it in so many words, prosecutor Jack Robbins' case against Fadden seemed to be, "I say, Muffy, people of breeding simply don't shoot criminals with machine guns in Fairfax County! Now, had he used a civilized weapon like a Browning Superposed ... and preferably shot him on the rise ... "

You and I know that Class III holders are the ultimate "card carrying good guys and gals." That particular card says they have been investigated for six months by the Federal government and been found trustworthy to possess machine guns. Unfortunately, most of the public in the jury pool, and most politically motivated prosecutors, don't know that. Every self-defense shooting I've run across with a Class III weapon, however justified, has at the very least ended with the shooter facing a grand jury. Asked what he thinks would have happened if he'd shot Hamilton with a Remington 870 Wingmaster instead, Fadden replies with certainty, "I would have gone home that night. I've told dozens of people since, 'Do not use a Class III weapon for personal defense."' Today, the guns Gary is likely to have in his car have neutral images: an M-1 .30 carbine, and a 10mm Glock 20 pistol.

Be there for your friends. It was stunning how many people he had trusted shunned Gary after the shooting, and particularly, after his indictment. He cherishes those who stood beside him through the ordeal, particularly Jim Stone and Rick DeMilt and, most particularly, knife-maker Al Mar.

Much later, after his AC556 had been returned to him by the courts, Gary gave that gun to Al Mar, another man who appreciated a fine weapon of any kind. On its stock was a brass plate engraved "To Al Mar, Because You Understand."

Gary says, "For twenty years now, I've cherished every morning I've gotten up, because I earned every moment of my life. I fought for it."

After Al Mar's death, Gary Fadden scraped up the money to buy his knife business, and he is CEO of Al Mar Knives to this day. One good man carrying on the work of another. It seems fitting.

· Registered
12 Posts
Personally when i think of Home defense I think of shot gun not AR. But In the words of my Boss. "If some one comes in with a .45 and you have a big gun (M-96 or XCR W/ 16'') they will think twice before saying give me your money."

But for the home just the sound of a shot gun action is just plain scary!
1 - 13 of 13 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.