[rkmcdon]

This question is mainly aimed at VariableBinary, but anyone with any info feel free to chime in.

VB, in another thread you had mentioned that Bushmaster had ruined the Masada/ACR and i was curious to know what you meant. I know magpul designed the masada and then sold the rights for further development, production, and distribution to Bushmaster, but i wasn't aware Bushmaster had done anything to screw up the rifle. I didn't know if you were referring to the delays which now look to be extended until late 09 or even 2010, or if Bushmaster had actually change the rifle in a negative way.

Just wanted to see what the deal was.

Thanks

 

[aziator]

Most skeptics of Bushmaster will probably say that they have slowed down the timeline. Others will say that they purchased the rights to keep it off the market and thus keep some competition away from their AR-15 line-up.

VB may have some more insight, those are the ones that I can think of right off the top of my head.

 

[DSM]

The big problem here is that it got hyped up and couldn't be delivered. Developing something as a rifle, even using some common parts and hoping to get it to market in the timeframe they wanted was wishful thinking at best. If it was to stifle competition is a little skeptical as BM's parent company owns other AR builders, they'd still stand to make a chunk of profit either way.

 

[killswitch1982]

Besides, what does it do that the XCR doesn't?

 

[variablebinary]

This question is mainly aimed at VariableBinary, but anyone with any info feel free to chime in.

VB, in another thread you had mentioned that Bushmaster had ruined the Masada/ACR and i was curious to know what you meant. I know magpul designed the masada and then sold the rights for further development, production, and distribution to Bushmaster, but i wasn't aware Bushmaster had done anything to screw up the rifle. I didn't know if you were referring to the delays which now look to be extended until late 09 or even 2010, or if Bushmaster had actually change the rifle in a negative way.

Just wanted to see what the deal was.

Thanks

I think the ACR is ruined because it is no longer what was promised when Magpul revealed it. "The People's Rifle".

Bushmaster is one of the most inept AR15 makers around, and once they got their claws into the Masada/ACR the first thing they did on the standard model is remove the folding stock and magically gained a full pound. Then it became an LEO/Military exclusive product. Then it became a possible M4 replacement, which somehow equates to not being sold at all.

If we see this thing at all, I will be impressed. But I'm not expecting much even from the end product

 

[rkmcdon]

I hate to hear that. The Masada is actually what led me here.

When i decided to get another rifle I started to go the AR route and build one with some nice addons. Between the lack of available parts and the fact that i already have an AR15 (though pretty vanilla), i decided to see what else was out there. I'd seen the Masada a year or so ago on Future weapons and looked into it. When i found out it wasn't available yet i kept looking and looked at the FN Scar and SABR. Of course neither of these are available but in doing some research I stumbled on to the XCR which I had never heard of but i really liked and it incorporates everything i was wanting in the AR15 build i was initially contemplating. Anyway, that eventually led me to these forums and my decision to buy an XCR.

I really liked what the Masada started out as, I hate to hear Bushmaster might be turning it into vaporware.

 

[MickeyC]

Bushmaster produce over 40% of civilian ARs, based on the 2005 numbers. Do you really think they want to risk their core business with a competing civilian product?

 

[variablebinary]

Bushmaster produce over 40% of civilian ARs, based on the 2005 numbers. Do you really think they want to risk their core business with a competing civilian product?

Their market is probably even smaller with so many higher quality upstarts like Saber, RRA, Noveske etc etc. Then you got the XCR, SIG 556, P90, FS2000. Soon there will be SCAR and AUG.

The theory some have is Bushmaster gobbled up the ACR just to keep it off the market for as long as possible to milk the AR15 market, but it also gives them a competitive design to spring once the AR15 market bottoms.

 

[MickeyC]

Maybe true as their share of the Civilian AR market is almost three times that of the number two player. In 05 they did somethng like 66,000 rifles. (Data courtesy of G&A)

 

[DSM]

They should have sold it to Smith and Wesson, they were reportedly the first folks to approach Magpul. It was right shortly after they started up their M&P AR's, I think they would have pushed it to market as fast as possible to grab their foothold on that market. Their AR's are doing reasonably well but they could have really made a splash with it.

 

[Special-K]

I think Bushmaster has really burned some bridges with this. I can only call it a debacle. I can think of many more colorful terms for it too.

The constant delays are exactly what made me decide to get my XCR instead. If the ACR ever becomes real, then i will consider saving up for and purchasing one, but I just spent my ACR money on an XCR.




-K

 

[ny32182]

The constant delays are exactly what made me decide to get my XCR instead. If the ACR ever becomes real, then i will consider saving up for and purchasing one, but I just spent my ACR money on an XCR.

People were, and still are saying the exact same thing about the XCR. I believe it will come out when its ready. I don't think a delay is anything to really dog Bushmaster about specifically... all you can say is that they don't seem to be any better at predicting release dates than any other make. We are well past the dates when every single concept wonder rifle out there was supposed to be on the market.

That said, the XCR is in a pretty good spot right now; still being the only SCARspec rifle on the market. That is, if the number of "I'm taking a look at the XCR" posts I see around the internet are indicative of any real trend. The best thing RA could do to increase sales right now is expand their barrel selection.

 

[MickeyC]

...and get the new trigger out there.

 

[Whiskey three six]

That and find a way to quintupple production.


That said if the XCR and ACR were sitting on same shelf at the dealer for the same price I believe I would still choose the XCR as I see no real advantage of the ACR over the XCR. The drop in trigger pack is kind of a gimmick in my estimation.

 

[MickeyC]

Can't agree as I haven't 'seen' an ACR.

Both rifles have potential but the ACR has some interesting features, such as the barrel being a modified AR barrel, so they is a huge range availiable, same with the AR trigger set. The changeable lower to allow different magazine use is also interesting. I would have preferred a non reciprocating G36 style cocking handle but ultimately it isn't a big issue.

Being honest, the best thing this XCR has over the ACR, is that it is available now. When the ACR is released, direct comparisons will be available.

 

[Charlie]

Being honest, the best thing this XCR has over the ACR, is that it is available now. When the ACR is released, direct comparisons will be available.

I agree with MickyC and would add the ACR will have its work cut out to match the reliability of the XCR design and Bushmaster will have aways to go to match RA customers service level. All said, competition is a good thing and RA and BM ( bad acronym) will be better for it. I look forward to seeing these new designs but it will take something really special for me to retrain on a new system.

 

[Whiskey three six]

Correct.
Side by side comparison will be possible then. I based my statement off of
available media releases for the Masada and hands on experience with the XCR. The added value features I.E. quick change FCG,hand guard and magwell may be of some use to few. An AK magwell and bolt would be of interest to many but I doubt the pressure curve of that round and the current gas system would play well together.

 

[variablebinary]

Meh, this thing doesnt pique my interest in the slightest. I dont love plastic or Magpul that much. I'm totally convinced the majority of the hype about the ACR is due to secret man-love crushes on Drake and Costa

I would take this

or this

over this

If the HK 416 drops at SHOT, the Masada wont even be a blip on my radar

 

[Dredd]

I watched the story on Future Weapons about the ACR yesterday on You Tube, and I have to agree w/VB, plastic is ok. I would still prefer a metal rifle. The XCR does the same thing the ACR, the only difference is the XCR is available and from a company that has great customer service plus a long standing reputation on quality... :2cents:

These are the main reasons that I have put my XCR on order and spending over $1500, you can get an AR from BM for less then $800. Then again you get what you pay for. I am not bashing BM but I think their over all focus is quantity of quality. Again my :2cents:

Dredd

 

[DSM]

Both rifles have potential but the ACR has some interesting features, such as the barrel being a modified AR barrel, so they is a huge range availiable, same with the AR trigger set. The changeable lower to allow different magazine use is also interesting.

Bingo. Big selling points. The argument with plastic or polymer or whatever vs. aluminum or steel is all a matter of personal preference. I think it's a neat rifle myself, don't reckon it has anything to do with hairy man crushes.