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2,839 Posts
Translation: Magpul is retarded for teaming up us. We are Bushmaster and have our head up our ass.
Dont Expect to see a Masada/ACR anytime soon
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1,475 Posts
I sure hope robarm can make some major progress by then.
They could really take some wind out of BM's sails if they get the improvements done.
They could really take some wind out of BM's sails if they get the improvements done.
:duh: I, and many others apparently, knew it! What is with the incessant embellishment of time lines as concerns bringing product to market within this industry. Too hype driven I think. No matter though, my new XCR is on its way this week. From the details we've seen of the ACR thusfar the "X" is the weapon to have and available now. I dig the bespoke exclusivity of the XCR, plus you get more for the money ie all metal vs polymer with the ACR. And speaking of money, how overpriced will the Bushie be when finally brought to market I wonder. XCR rules!
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48 Posts
I do not see any branch of the US Armed Forces doing anything with the ACR.
USSCOM is moving forward with "their" Mk16/Mk17.
'Big' Army is still waiting for Phased-plasma rifles in the forty watt range. ;D
Does not mean I do not want to see the ACR brought to the marketplace.
After all, we have Remington, Ruger, Savage, Weatherby, and Winchester bolt guns. They all seem to do the same thing and work the same way.
Why can't the consumer have the ACR, SCAR, and XCR to choose from?
The fact that RA was first to market should give them a head start to develop production capacity, as a bulwark against FNH.
Shrubmaster is the largest civie AR maker in the US and only has ~100 people, at all its sites.
This includes everyone, from the Janitors to the various Directors.
Bushy's Lake Havasu City site = the old Professional Ordnance site.
Bushy's custom shop = Joint Partnership with Iron Brigade Armory.
Bushy's "Large Bore" rifles = the old Cobb Manufacturing.
I do not see a lot of ability to 'ramp' up production at any of these sites.
With both DPMS and Bushy working with Remington and their "hunting" R-15 and R-25 (cough!!, cough!!) semi-auto rifles, Q1 2009 is rather aggressive.
I see that Bushy would want to concentrate upon bringing the MCR (Cobb) to the marketplace along with their .30-06, and larger, AR style rifles. Not to mention the .338 LM and .50 BMG.
Where is does the ACR fit into this picture?
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2,839 Posts
And the SCAR follows. It too has been pushed to Q1 of 2009.
And people bitch about how long the 7.62x39 kit has taken for the XCR!
And people bitch about how long the 7.62x39 kit has taken for the XCR!
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5,177 Posts
At least we aren't the only ones who move dates ;D ;D
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48 Posts
FNH said that they would make a semi-auto version of the Mk16 in late 2005/early 2006. That's 2 1/2 - 3 years ago. There is slow and then there is slow.
I do not see myself going back into Iraq/Kuwait, so my 'need' for this kit is not that high, vis-a-vie using locally available ammunition. YMMV.
I have two SKS's and an AK for my 7.62x39.
Once cheap 7.62x39 ammo is no longer that cheap, then the kit becomes nothing more then an expensive shoe clip for men. Nice to have, but.....
.223/5.56 - easily found
6.8 SPC - a better round with better range.
6.5 Grendel - a better round with longer range.
I do not see myself going back into Iraq/Kuwait, so my 'need' for this kit is not that high, vis-a-vie using locally available ammunition. YMMV.
I have two SKS's and an AK for my 7.62x39.
Once cheap 7.62x39 ammo is no longer that cheap, then the kit becomes nothing more then an expensive shoe clip for men. Nice to have, but.....
.223/5.56 - easily found
6.8 SPC - a better round with better range.
6.5 Grendel - a better round with longer range.
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5,177 Posts
I know
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6,537 Posts
Don't worry Terra, we still love you!
RedFalconBill. Perhaps you have different information. Mine was that FNH has only recently, last 12 months or so, decided to make a civilian version available. Originally they had ruled out a semi-auto as all manufacturing would go for military use.
As for ammo, I'm having difficulty working out the real benefits of 6.8 over a 77grain .223 round. Up to 100 yards 6.8 definitely has a benefit, but beyond that not so much. 6.5 is a great round but it is very expensive and I can get almost the same performance out of a .308 round. Personally now, I'm happy to stay with 5.56 and 7.62. I reload, so I can make 5.56 for less than I can buy 7.62x39 surplus. The 7.62x39 was always going to be for shits and giggles anyway. Also whenever I bitch about the trigger, the XCR keeps being billed as a service rifle and not a long range/high accuracy rifle. So why put the 6.5, a long range hyper accurate round into a rifle not designed for that purpose? I took that advice literally and ordered and AA 6.5 upper. I can always use an overly accurate rifle close in, but it's hard to use a close in rifle far out.
What gets me with the 7.62x39 is that it was shown working in the early drills video on the RobArms site with a high cap magazine, over two years ago. The wait seems very odd given that, but who knows what other issues cropped up. As Terra says lots of issues crop up that take time to resolve. I'll give Alex credit for the leap of faith to develop a weapons system without a reliable magazine being available.
At the end of the day though, it will be available when RobArm releases it. Either you wait or you buy something else. The only real issue with the delays is that Alex might be loosing prospective business as money goes elsewhere. Personally I was looking forward to having the caliber changes for the XCR, but given the delays, and the cost of ammo etc... I'll probably leave it at 5.56. I might move to 6.8 but honestly I doubt it because 308 hits harder.
As for the ACR, I still want to get one, simply for it's design. for .308, it's between the XCR-M and the SCAR-H, lets see who comes out first. Hopefully Alex will, his design has potential.
RedFalconBill. Perhaps you have different information. Mine was that FNH has only recently, last 12 months or so, decided to make a civilian version available. Originally they had ruled out a semi-auto as all manufacturing would go for military use.
As for ammo, I'm having difficulty working out the real benefits of 6.8 over a 77grain .223 round. Up to 100 yards 6.8 definitely has a benefit, but beyond that not so much. 6.5 is a great round but it is very expensive and I can get almost the same performance out of a .308 round. Personally now, I'm happy to stay with 5.56 and 7.62. I reload, so I can make 5.56 for less than I can buy 7.62x39 surplus. The 7.62x39 was always going to be for shits and giggles anyway. Also whenever I bitch about the trigger, the XCR keeps being billed as a service rifle and not a long range/high accuracy rifle. So why put the 6.5, a long range hyper accurate round into a rifle not designed for that purpose? I took that advice literally and ordered and AA 6.5 upper. I can always use an overly accurate rifle close in, but it's hard to use a close in rifle far out.
What gets me with the 7.62x39 is that it was shown working in the early drills video on the RobArms site with a high cap magazine, over two years ago. The wait seems very odd given that, but who knows what other issues cropped up. As Terra says lots of issues crop up that take time to resolve. I'll give Alex credit for the leap of faith to develop a weapons system without a reliable magazine being available.
At the end of the day though, it will be available when RobArm releases it. Either you wait or you buy something else. The only real issue with the delays is that Alex might be loosing prospective business as money goes elsewhere. Personally I was looking forward to having the caliber changes for the XCR, but given the delays, and the cost of ammo etc... I'll probably leave it at 5.56. I might move to 6.8 but honestly I doubt it because 308 hits harder.
As for the ACR, I still want to get one, simply for it's design. for .308, it's between the XCR-M and the SCAR-H, lets see who comes out first. Hopefully Alex will, his design has potential.
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48 Posts
Strange, this is not what they said at SHOT. Then again who can believe much of what they are told there anyway?
The 6.8 is better than the .223 in gel testing out to 150 meters and has more ME out to 500 meters, for those who use ME as some sort of measurement.
I was comparing the 6.8 to the 7.62x39 round. Sorry if my comparison was unclear.
Agreed. Now, if we can get Fiocchi to step up and produce the ammo the Grendel round, like they said they would, it would help supply quite a bit.
The so-called "cheap" steel cased Wolf ammo is still vaporware.
Agreed on all points. I have three 7,62x39 carbines, a living room to furnish and a kitchen to redo so I don't see much time or money for a 7.62 kit in my future....
The XCR, for me, is more than 'minute of felon' so I am non plussed about this. If I really want to embarrass myself, I'll bring out my RRA CMP rifle and show that Bill becoming an Expert is not likely w/o more practice.
Your points about over promising and over reaching, are spot on. Most enterprises go under because they over expand and are under capitalized (Randall Arms and the original Kimber are two among many in this industry).
Well, CProducts has starting shipping their 30 round 7.62x39 magazines on May 12th to those that bought their 25 round magazines in 2006 and had trouble with them. Next up is the OEM's, RA among them. With reliable magazines (hopefully) over 10 rounds in RA hands, the kits will not be far behind. Cannot be that many individuals who exchanged/took rain checks for these magazines.
I know of one AR maker and one aftermarket supplier who are waiting for these magazines before they move forward with their 7.62x39 upper/rifle development.
Don't see the Mk17 coming out anytime soon. Looks like it is the XCR-M or the Bushmaster/Cobb MCR, unless you want an AR-10.
I got banned from another forum (area) for saying that the "MASADA" was not going to make their timeline in the least bit, and they were lucky if they had one true, ACR even operating.. They posted a vid and showed the ACR firing for the first time ever. Needless to say, I was glad I was proved wrong, stated that, and said that I hope Bushmaster doesn't screw anything up such as the deadline. I got banned and told that Magpul had full control over the operation. ;D
I'll get an ACR if it's released in time, and after the first couple thousand go out. I still think BM is going to screw this one up. It's a true shame because Magpul really is a great company!
Go bushmaster. :
I'll get an ACR if it's released in time, and after the first couple thousand go out. I still think BM is going to screw this one up. It's a true shame because Magpul really is a great company!
Go bushmaster. :
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8,010 Posts
I would rather wait and have a product ready over one that is rushed to market with constant issues.
I too am anxious to get a 762x39 kit as it is the only thing I am really missing, a weapon that is ergonomically just as good as an AR, and one that takes AR type optics.
For me, while I wait, there are plenty of things I can buy, ammo, reloading components, acogs, IOR's, handguns, etc.... main thing is ammo and reloading components, just use all your money for that as the price will only go up.
I too am anxious to get a 762x39 kit as it is the only thing I am really missing, a weapon that is ergonomically just as good as an AR, and one that takes AR type optics.
For me, while I wait, there are plenty of things I can buy, ammo, reloading components, acogs, IOR's, handguns, etc.... main thing is ammo and reloading components, just use all your money for that as the price will only go up.
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48 Posts
Sorry to hear about the bannage there. Did the 'discussion' get heated?I got banned from another forum (area) for saying that the "MASADA" was not going to make their timeline in the least bit, and they were lucky if they had one true, ACR even operating.. They posted a vid and showed the ACR firing for the first time ever. Needless to say, I was glad I was proved wrong, stated that, and said that I hope Bushmaster doesn't screw anything up such as the deadline. I got banned and told that Magpul had full control over the operation. ;D
I'll get an ACR if it's released in time, and after the first couple thousand go out. I still think BM is going to screw this one up. It's a true shame because Magpul really is a great company!
Go bushmaster. :
To me, MagPul having 'operational control' means nothing. The question remains, does Bushmaster have the ability to test/refine the ACR and then have the ability to get the fixtures, tooling, supplies, and staff to get the ACR out the door before January 20th, 2009?
Bushmaster, ME office - <70 personnel
Bushmaster, NC office - ~3 personnel (IBA custom shop)
Bushmaster, AZ office - <30 personnel (Professional Odnance)
Bushmaster, GA office - ~4 personnel (Cobb Manufacturing)
DPMS, MN office - ~ 25 personnel
Where do you see the ability to produce the ACR, unless Cerberus gets NEF or Marlin to make it, since they own them as well?
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6,537 Posts
There is a fair chance that Bushmaster bought the US license to the rifle to keep it off the market, or at least delay its introduction.
As for production, that's simple, farm the bulk of the work out to subcontractors and simply assemble on site. They could do that in either the ME or AZ offices or set up a new location with relative ease. I think the lack of information other than the SHOT announcement means they intend to bury it for a while.
If I were running the business, unless I had already invested in the tooling etc, I would wait to see how the presidential vote goes before spending the money on establishing a product that might get banned before it breaks even. I suspect this is why MAGPUL didn't want to go it alone, by licensing the rifle manufacturing they reduce their financial risk. If it goes ahead they get licensing fees and production volume from manufacturing the composite parts. i.e. win-win, with little risk other than current investment capital, which can be written off as R&D should the effort fail.
If however I had already invested in the tooling I would focus on getting the product to market in order to maximize revenue prior to any such ban. Effectively you're committed and it is shit or bust time.
I suspect the former is true however given the relatively small number of rifles in test circulation.
As for production, that's simple, farm the bulk of the work out to subcontractors and simply assemble on site. They could do that in either the ME or AZ offices or set up a new location with relative ease. I think the lack of information other than the SHOT announcement means they intend to bury it for a while.
If I were running the business, unless I had already invested in the tooling etc, I would wait to see how the presidential vote goes before spending the money on establishing a product that might get banned before it breaks even. I suspect this is why MAGPUL didn't want to go it alone, by licensing the rifle manufacturing they reduce their financial risk. If it goes ahead they get licensing fees and production volume from manufacturing the composite parts. i.e. win-win, with little risk other than current investment capital, which can be written off as R&D should the effort fail.
If however I had already invested in the tooling I would focus on getting the product to market in order to maximize revenue prior to any such ban. Effectively you're committed and it is shit or bust time.
I suspect the former is true however given the relatively small number of rifles in test circulation.
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2,839 Posts
I think it was a mistake for Magpul to partner with Bushmaster. Just a bad idea up and down. Right off they started raping the design that impressed so many. The only upside is the cash injection, but for all its deep pockets, Bushmaster builds shit AR15's. I dont have high hopes for a Bushmaster ACR...
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