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Discussion Starter #1
The FN SCAR, its for SOCOM, is it for every one in SOCOM from Army Rangers to Navy SEALs all the way to the 95th Civil Affairs Brigade?
 

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Doubt it, A "SOCOM" unit just had an order for HK 416s cancelled because they aren't that "special". To be honest I don't know if it will go to all SF units. They are a particular bunch, each liking different things. One unit for instance is using 6.8 SPC rifles while others may be using 416's and others using the SOPMOD rifle. I am not in any way affiliated with SOCOM so I can't directly speak for them.
 

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The FN SCAR, its for SOCOM, is it for every one in SOCOM from Army Rangers to Navy SEALs all the way to the 95th Civil Affairs Brigade?
I dont think anyone knows what the hell is going on with the SCAR at this point. The project and contract has been up an down in terms of amount and delievery time. It's taken fours years to get where we are now...which is where? Who knows but FN and the Fed.
 

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that's why I tell eveyone why beat around the bush waiting for these things....

Get an XCR! just as modular, has proven reliable, and excellent customer. ;D I have not had to use the customer service yet, but I see that Terra and gang is always here when we need them.
 

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I know a person involved with the CRANE/SOCOM developments. Yes the SCAR is intended to replace and standardize what SOCOM will carry. They are fed up with trying to have a weapon for this and a weapon for that but I'm sure there will be some exceptions. But it seems certain that the SCAR is in. But as politics goes ya never know how it will end, but w/o a doubt the SCAR is way out in front of the pack an seems to be it AND it appears that this arrangement had been given the nod/wink/thumbs up even before the 'competition' even began.

He also says Marines have been bugging them about information of the developments of the SCAR so they too have an eye out of it. He boasts about how much better the Scar's ergo's are, and it's similarity it has to the M16/M4's so training to transition would be a cinch, how modular and mission adaptable its is, accurate, and all around a favorite shooting piece to all. He also mentioned how armorer friendly/eliminates the need for a armorer specific maintenance. Basically he describes the attributes of the XCR.

He also mentioned that FNH had been johnny on the spot during the 'competition' and Hk is all butt sore about the whole ordeal. They were trying to resurrect the XM8 again. A weapon that required too many special 'developments' and trained armorers to do anything to the weapon which most requiring replacing a receiver that cannot be fixed if it goes TU and that removing and replacing barrels stresses the receiver. Besides MAYBE if Germany had a more supportive role with the US in Iraq, perhaps the XM8 project MMMAAAYYY have taken a different direction. I say too f'ing bad for them.

The M4/M16 days are definitely numbered. Let's hope it won't take 20 years to phase them out. He's played with my XCR and although he won't admit it and thinks the SCAR is da shizzle he did kinda agree that if the XCR had been given a chance that it too would have had quite a few changes during a T&E with SOCOM. But he says the XCR, and the up and coming ACR are only toys, doubtful at best if any will ever see a g'vmt contract.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I know I asked the original question, but why the fvck did FN keep an AR style bolt release instead of doing it like the XCR and ACR, if its training thats bull sh!t...
I'm sure no one knows... I don't know why I ask...
 

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It's simple and it works. If the militrary doesn't want a change then why take the risk of changing it.
 

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I have a brother who is currently in the 5th special forces group, and i also have another brother who test weapons for crane all the time, and both tell me the scar will be standard issue accross the board.... and then I woke up becuase I realize I have no brothers :D
 

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Discussion Starter #9
It's simple and it works. If the militrary doesn't want a change then why take the risk of changing it.
But it could be more simple and work better... wasent that the whole point behind the whole rifle, dont want a change why get a new rifle...
 

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The AR15 bolt release is incredibly simple and I can see why they didn't change it simply becasue it works. Yes, I would have preferred that they did it differently but hell, i'd still get one.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Just saying they could have made an already incredibly fast magazine change even faster, by essentially eliminating a whole step, it also would have made it ambidextrous... but yeah it is most definitely not a deal killer, I would really like one.
 

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Training??
How many controls are on a rifle that transition training would be difficult?
The operator either knows how his/her equipment works or they don't. If they don't then the mag release could be in the butt stock and it would not be any less awkward.

"It's more ergonomic; but, the controls are laid out the same." I'm an Engineer and that reasoning doesn't fly on the manufacturing floor. Why does it work for guns?
Can you tell I hate that reasoning. :banghead:
 

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Training??
How many controls are on a rifle that transition training would be difficult?
The operator either knows how his/her equipment works or they don't. If they don't then the mag release could be in the butt stock and it would not be any less awkward.

"It's more ergonomic; but, the controls are laid out the same." I'm an Engineer and that reasoning doesn't fly on the manufacturing floor. Why does it work for guns?
Can you tell I hate that reasoning. :banghead:
Stress during combat;

Combat doesn't occurr in an engineering office or a manufacturer's floor.  Many things have been designed, manufactured, and fielded to be used by grunts.  I can personally vouch over half of the typical combat TO&E never seen used in 5 to 10 years after it's initial induction.  Some things gets replaced by something newer and better, others just wasn't a good idea once it hit the field.

You wouldn't go into combat with just merely putting a measly 1k rounds down range and say "That should do it".  In a combat stress fine motor skills go out the window.  If a soldier/Marine/operator has has years behind the trigger of a weapon system that they are accustomed to it would not be smart to swap it out to one that has different controls.  For a green troop that may be fine off the bat.  The SCAR stays close to the M16 erogo's so transitioning wouldn't/shouldn't be much of an issue.  This would be prudent specially diring wartime.  I believe that was one of the reasons the Army dumped the XM8.

As a former/and still semi-grunt POV it is best to keep a new gun reasonable similar to the one being replaced.  Take for instance how difficult it would be to get used to a P90.  During a non-stress practice not such a biggie, but I'd bet in combat someone will forget, or more like resort to, loading the mag incorrectly in a rush.  Russians could have switched to a staight in mag decades ago but they resist it since that is the way their troops load mags, by rocking them in.

A few changes here and there would not be hard to re-train troops to use, but to switch to something totally different isn't a good idea.  Like the M14 to M16 transition.  I'd bet a lot of the old troops then still manipulated the M16 charging handle with their right hand for a while and tried to dump empty mag looking for the mag release in the wrong place.  These things do happen.  Basically soldiers are programmed to operate their weapons automatically.  They should be kept very simple and every soldier should be very familiar with thier weapon. 

Can't recall the year, but I believe it was in the early 70's.  California HP got into a shootout with bad guys using semi auto guns, them with revolvers.  At the range during quals they would frequently pick up thier brass as they shoot their quals.  Well some of the chippies they found dead had either empty casings in their hands and/or in their pockets.  Thier mind resorted immediately to how they were trained. 

Transitioning a whole Army/Armed Forces from one weapons platform to another takes years and a lot of money.  Not only money to buy the weapon but rounds, many rounds, to get the soldiers used to the weapon.  So keeping the ergo's as close to the M16 would mean less time, less rounds, less lives that could be potentially lost.  This isn't like some corporation that would need to retrain employees to use Windows Vista.

Personally I couldn't see the harm to use a bolt release like the XCR, but oh well.  The M16 style I'm all too well used to it already to the point it is second nature and I remember when they didn't care if we used a thumb or finger to drop the bolt, but now it's a no-no.  Seems as if the SCAR gives a soldier a new weapon (well almost) but retains nearly identical controls.  Can't say I'm sad to see that foward assist go away.  SPORTS is the dumbest immediate action dril ever devised, alway a guaranteed double feed jam.
 

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i303, great post. People sometimes don't realize how hard it is to change muscle memory. I am trying to change the way I grip a pistol just slighty, and even after working at it for months I still resort to the old method every now and then when doing dry fire presentations.

If we were issued a new rifle that was mostly different from the M4/M16 It would take reflex fire/dry fire every day, 3-4 times a day, for months before I would feel comfortable taking that rifle into combat.

There are just a few proven things that happen during high-stress incidents. Loss of fine motor skills is one of them. I couldn't figure out for the life of me why the instructors at Gunsite told my wife to never use the slide release and always release the slide with her weak hand pulling it back and letting it go. It was because during a high-stress incident you may not have the fine motor skills to make your little thumb reach up there and push on that little tab that releases the slide.

I will say that I fired an M4 the other day for the first time in a long time and couldn't remember how I used to lock the bolt back to the rear. Whatever I did it felt awkward. That is from shooting an XCR primarily for the last 2 years.
 

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People sometimes don't realize how hard it is to change muscle memory.


Crap, when I was writing that last post I was thinking, "wasn't there a term that described it correctly?". Glad you mentioned it aziator. Apparently my memory is fading. Or is it these dang 5 kids who are driving crazy? Thanks anyways.

On the same topic, for years I refused to shoot any other pistol other than my issued Beretta 96D. I had some adjustment time needed to get used to it. It took me around 2 to 3 years and only shot my issued Beretta up until we transitioned to the Hk P2000, some 9 years total. Even though both are very similar in operation the trigger pull is different and you can see it on people's score. It too will take about 2 to 3 years to get back to my high scores. of course I ain't exactly complaining here, and that is about how light and compact it is compared to the Beretta.

So I'd add, if it was up to me there'd have to be some drasticaly improved weapon that would/should require re-training to adapt to new control locations and features. It looks as if history also shows the same following. I'd be the first to say that the M4 is one tough nut to beat when it comes to having something as accurate AND light. It has been reliable enough albeit that is my, and others, biggest critism on the weapon.
 

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It's not about how hard it is, more about training itself. Weapons training is expensive. Ammunition and weapon wear and maintenance is expensive. By being able to reduce training an organization can cut costs.

Look at how often some soldiers or Law Enforcement officers have to qualify and how much they actually shoot when they do. It's far less than it used to be. In my old mans day, soldiers went to the range once per week, to zero and check their weapons. Now some soldiers only shoot yearly when they have to qualify. for a lot of cops it's similar, why ...cost containment.

For the army, if you can cut weapons training by an hour, that's a million man hours saved.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
This wont be the whole militarise weapon, besides aren't Navy SEALs, Army Special Forces, Army Rangers, Air Force Combat Controllers, and blah, blah, blah, aren't they almost all supposed to be proficient with a variety of weapons already any ways? All I'm saying is they realised the AR style charging handle sucked, so they changed it, why not change the bolt release to??? That will screw with your muscle memory just as much if not more I think... but again I doubt any of us have the answer, but opinionsand personal experience are great!
 

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Like the M14 to M16 transition. I'd bet a lot of the old troops then still manipulated the M16 charging handle with their right hand for a while ...
Nice visual. I forgot that the training would all have to be formal. Since the military won't let you take your M16 home to practice.
 

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I'd bet a lot of the old troops then still manipulated the M16 charging handle with their right hand for a while
And some still do to this day.

Is this supposed to be incorrect?

I have always used my right hand on the charging handle. Incidently, I did learn on the M14, well after several years of time as a kid with the 10/22. I did over 7 years active in the Army I never was taught to use my left hand on the charge handle.

I am wondering how to lock the bolt back if you have your left hand on the charge handle?
 

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I'd bet a lot of the old troops then still manipulated the M16 charging handle with their right hand for a while
And some still do to this day.

Is this supposed to be incorrect?

I have always used my right hand on the charging handle. Incidently, I did learn on the M14, well after several years of time as a kid with the 10/22. I did over 7 years active in the Army I never was taught to use my left hand on the charge handle.

I am wondering how to lock the bolt back if you have your left hand on the charge handle?
I was also taught to use the right hand or I should correctly say it wasn't specified. It's not that it is incorrect but tactics and techniques have changed throughout the times. The emphasis now, and has been for a while, is to maintain a shooting grip with your strong hand/right hand for most, and manipulate with you support hand. This ensures if you encounter a threat it would be a quicker shot and that is the intent of muscle memory and these tactics have been developed by special ops units and SWAT for years. This is the sort of stuff that should be addressed if you attend one of those carbine courses. That is why as I said 'old troops' will probably continue to use the right hand since it wasn't either taught or reinforced to flip the M14 to the side and use support hand. Even old Soviet block troops with AK's are being taught the 'flip' and they are just now more vocal about the rock in mags as they too get more exposure to newer weapon designs.

Breaking your shooting grip on a rifle to manipulate charging handles, BHO, mags, is consider a no-no because you want to maintain simplicity and build that muscle memory. Just like we are now taught to dump empty mags and get a fresh one out-called an emergency reload now-, or in a magazine exchange to retrive the fresh mag and swap them out. I believe new recruits are taught from day one (don't quote me-but they should if not) to adapt to these new practices. It is easier to teach a new brain than that which has been already programmed. And a lot of veteran soldiers who have been brought up to speed are definitely incorporating this into training with new troops. Heck, it's being taught to MOS's other than combat arms now. So it shows how far things have changed about the simplests techniques that were typically ignored in the past.

Most LE Agencies, mine, do attempt to incorporate the newest techniques. Not necessarily to adapt to every new fangle way, but keep it simple just as I said before, only use that trigger finger for few tasks. Pull trigger and push the mag dump button. If we have a critical jam that a simple tap, rack, bang won't fix, (forget SPORTS, delete that stupid idea to clear a M16 jam from your brains forvever and never speak of it again!) we now teach to drop it (slung) and bring out your secondary. THEN later clear your jam under cover. As far as locking the bolt to the rear after a range shooting session it isn't enforces either support of shooting hand, but I continue to manipulate the charging handle with my left as it is now muscle memory.

About how to lock back the bolt on a M16, this is where I'd have to break my shooting grip. I just cup the magwell, (because the first or second thing one would do it attempt to put on safe then drop the mag) and use my left (always) to pull the charging handle to the rear. And when it comes to releasing the BHO the technique is to palm slap it as opposed to guiding your left bugger picker on to a 1/4" oval button. Fine motor skills are commonly the first to dissapear in a high stress/threat enviroment.

This is why we see a big trend to make weapons ambidextrious. Not that they can alway make it 100% ambi. The BHO device used by the XCR and G36 (I guess Masada too), to some extent the FAL, makes a lot more sense but not necessarily a must have.
 
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