[wbrock001]

Im ordering an m and wanted folks thoughts on using frangible 308 rounds to prevent over penetration issues in the home environment?

 

[dont_tread_on_me]

I really hope you plan on using a suppressor or ear pro because if you've never fired a 30 caliber rifle indoors,I suggest you try it before deciding on one for home defense.Also barrel length matters,I have a 16 inch tube on a PTR91K and I promise you,you don't want to touch that thing off indoors at night without sunglasses and ear muffs+plugs.Not to mention the pressure wave from firing such a weapon in close quarters is quite impressive,it feels like someone suddenly hit you on the sternum,not quite take your breath hard,but it's quite distracting if your not expecting it.Hope this helps.

 

[Sean K.]

I don't think frangible .308 is going to be ANY comfort to your neighbors unless your home has very solid concrete/rock walls.

Frangible, IMO, is for .223 for home defense.

JMO,
Sean

 

[wombat338]

I really hope you plan on using a suppressor or ear pro because if you've never fired a 30 caliber rifle indoors,I suggest you try it before deciding on one for home defense.Also barrel length matters,I have a 16 inch tube on a PTR91K and I promise you,you don't want to touch that thing off indoors at night without sunglasses and ear muffs+plugs.Not to mention the pressure wave from firing such a weapon in close quarters is quite impressive,it feels like someone suddenly hit you on the sternum,not quite take your breath hard,but it's quite distracting if your not expecting it.Hope this helps.

+1 on that!

wbrock, if you're thinking about a .308 for home defense, you might want to reconsider. An intermediate cartridge would be about the limit for me -- preferably in a short-barreled, lightweight, maneuverable package. Although I prefer a pistol for home defense (has the advantage of maneuverability and keeping one hand free to open doors, move the kids, grab the phone), the rifle I will keep most handy (when it arrives) will be the XCR SBR I now have on order, in .300 BLK, with a short suppressor. IMO, a .308 is better suited for the range, deer woods, or battlefield. Just my :2cents:

 

[wbrock001]

Thank you all, that is the info I was looking for...as in 308 bad idea for in-home defense. Well I've decided I'm getting an xcr, it's just which to get is the problem L or M. I like the power of the 308 and versatility for hunting and longer range use, but obviously lots of shooting is almost twice as expensive as 5.56. Then the versatility of the L with cartridges that are fine for shorter range hunting, cheaper shooting. At this time I can only have one or the other...

I guess if you could only have one which would you go for...uses for hunting and target shooting?

 

[SS.Pic]

I think the L is the way to go for the first one. It offers more versatility with ammo sizes. (as well as cheaper)
The 7.62x39 good enough for most game in N. America. :2cents:

 

[wombat338]

I think the L is the way to go for the first one. It offers more versatility with ammo sizes. (as well as cheaper)
The 7.62x39 good enough for most game in N. America. :2cents:

Agree -- IMO, definitely the L. 5.56 would be best for target shooting and varmints, since there's a tremendous variety of ammo out there. RA makes both 1/9 and 1/7 twist barrels -- 1/9 is the default, and might be better for general use and a wide variety of bullet weights. If you choose to use it to hunt deer-size game, either 7.62x39 or 6.8 would be acceptable at up to perhaps 150-200 yds -- keep your range reasonable and you should be fine. And with the XCR, of course you can have more than one caliber. That said, I'm a bolt action guy when it comes to hunting -- I use my XCR for plinking, varmints, and as a general fun gun. When my suppressed SBR comes, it will also serve and as a potential home defense weapon in a worst-case scenario, but more frequently for plugging groundhogs and armadillos without leaving the house. ;D

As for the M, it's an as of yet unproven platform -- I'd wait a bit before jumping in. I had been looking at the XCR-L since it first came out, but it went through some growing pains. The bolt catch, bolt, gas valve, trigger, and both lower and upper receivers have been upgraded over the years. The end result is a fantastic rifle. Hopefully the M will need fewer tweaks, but it's likely there will be some.

 

[MickeyC]

.308 in the home is not a good idea. Concussion blast, over penetration etc. Early in my service I used L1A1 rifles for house clearing, the noise, concussion etc is very harsh. A .308 is also bigger and heavier and less manoverable.

You could use think jacketed bullets but frankly .223 is much better there, using a fast light bullet that fragements on hiting hard surfaces. Lots of tissue damage, limited over or barrier penetration.

150 grain Combined Technology tips fragment nicely at high velocity and there are other .308 varmint rounds which can help too but they won;t get you around the size, weight and other issues of a 308 platform.

 

[wbrock001]

Thank you for your feedback. My understanding with the L is the gas system, the trigger, the firing pin, and the bolt release got upgraded (am I missing anything)...which were all relatively easy replacements. But the upper and lower themselves were not modified (big pieces)? So meaning if there are any issues with the M, it should have already benefitted from much of the L's mods...though since it is new and they took their time releasing it, it is "hoped" that it is as close to perfect as possible. But any teething issues may be relatively simple parts replacements? I guess since its not out yet...no one will have any real answers on that other than conjecture, but if you could logically relate it to the L then those upgrades did eventually get it to be a near perfect platform with relatively inexpensive part replacements?

I had just sold a Blaser LRS rifle in 308, hence why I was leaning toward the M to replace it. Also, all I currently have in 223 is a single shot T/C rifle (sold my AR in the craze, but still have a complete lower ready for an upper). I have pistols for home defense purposes. In thinking of my potential uses, I "thought" of potentially hunting, 3-gun competition, long range tactical matches (blaser would have been better, but in 308 tougher to compete with 6mm especially over 1000 yards). The M would be a bit big for 3-gun, but doable (I've seen enough videos of folks using SCAR 17s with the PWS muzzle brake, more expensive to practice with), but still need a decent shotgun, and would have to do some work on my pistol (trigger and sights).

If I got the L, I'd have more left over for a good shotgun and/or pistol work...man, so many choices. Who would think it would be so tough to figure out how to spend a few thousand!!!

I guess what I'm really trying to do is have one rifle to be an all purpose and unfortunately it just doesn't work that way.

 

[MickeyC]

With an -L you could shoot .223, 6.8 and 7.62x39 off a single platform.

The -M should be the latest and greatest iteration of the platform.

No, one rifle can't do it all unfortunately. Now if the -L came with 6.5 that might have been different.

 

[Benjamin Kurata]

There's this pervasive belief that frangible projectiles will break up in tissue, sheet rock, etc. and thus solve "over penetration" issues. The fact of the matter is, all frangible projectiles range somewhere in the hard cast lead to harder than ball ammo hardness. They are designed to break up on a minimum hardness of AR 500 steel. If you're shooting rifle calibers, 3/8" thickness.

Related to this myth is the constantly resurfacing myth that the Sky Marshals carry frangible ammo that won't penetrate aluminum aircraft hulls so if they have to shoot, everyone in the cabin won't get sucked out through the .356" diameter hole like Auric Goldfinger. the Sky Marshals have never carried frangible ammo as a duty round.

So, if your house is completely constructed of AR 500 steel, 3/8" thick, you don't have to worry about over penetration issues - and congratulations, you're living in a ballistic shoot house! (Which might be kinda cool at first, but from the time I've spent in them, they're ovens in the summers and deep freeze boxes in the winters!)

 

[series11]

I'm a rifle shooter and if I have to grab something it will be a rifle in pistol caliber (Saving for Kriss) or my XCR in 7.62x39. The 7.62x39 is slower than 5.56 and packs a punch which is why I chose it but 5.56 is good as well but I think has a higher velocity (don't have stats infront of me right now).

 

[wbrock001]

ha ha, yeah...no ar500 steel house for me! A lot of the companies that make frangible bullets make claims that it'll break up on any slightly hard surface, or will just penetrate one layer and thats it. Subsequently, I found on youtube a video of a guy testing some of the claims and the frangibles actually penetrated over 5 layers of sheet rock...so that was pistol ammo (9mm I think), so imagine what a rifle round would do! So you're right, not a good idea.

 

[SS.Pic]

These guys are fun to watch and a lot of good info too.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/ I think they did a video
on this subject some where in there stuff.

 

[wbrock001]

Yes! That was the video that I watched...the wallboard box of truth!

 

[jasonjeep83]

Cut the 308 with a cross on the top until your 1/4 from the end of the projectile reload it with 30 percent less powder and your good to go low velocity fragmenting 308s !!!! Now be smart and Bo what the gentle man said about the pistol they in some cases will still penitrate walls for god Saks don't do what I said except for now !!! A pump action short shotgun has been protecting homes forever just the sound of it racking will prevent confrontation and they will flee best bet is fill with heavy bird shot that won't penitrate walls but will take hours in the ER to remove the BBs you can keep it safe from the kids with biometric locks and it is tried tested and true

thanks Jason!

 

[acco]

If you aren't going with a pistol, I suggest a shotgun for home defense. 20ga will work, but so will 12ga with #1 buck (harder to find)- generally one of the better rounds for kill but not over penetrate.

That said, if you aren't able to get a shotgun, then the L will work for you. Make sure you think about barrel length moving around in a house. A short barrel is best, but then you aren't able to reach out as far for hunting or target shooting. For the cost of the extra barrel you could buy a base model mossberg or 870 with a short barrel.

*I also recommend spending the money on a decent weapon light for ANYONE using a firearm for home defence. You don't have to buy the latest and most expensive Surefire- but something made for your shotgun/pistol/rifle, with good batteries could mean the difference between a hit and a miss- or between a good shoot (bad guy) and the worst mistake you would ever make (wrong person).

 

[acco]

best bet is fill with heavy bird shot that won't penitrate walls but will take hours in the ER to remove the BBs

I disagree compeletly with you. Firearms are for lethal force. If you have to shoot someone, it's because you need them to 100% STOP, meaning disrupting the central nervous system or damaging vital organs. Birds shot WILL NOT kill someone most of the time. In close quarters it will penetrate further than hunting distances, but it is not uncommon for people to be shot and not even notice. I've seen men wounded in combat that didn't notice until 30 minutes or more later, because the adrenaline kept them moving. Add the potential for heavy drug use by an intruder, and you want something that will KILL, not wound.

 

[acco]

You probably already know this, but make sure if you go with 5.56 you stay away from the M855 military rounds. The steel penetrator in those is specifically designed to defeat barriers, and will penetrate right through your walls in many cases. Stay with a soft point or lower velocity round for in your house.

 

[MickeyC]

Go with 5.56/.223 and varmint rounds. They have thin jackets, do a lot of damage and don't over penetrate. Also train, so you can shoot accurately under stress.

Avoid low velocity rifle rounds as they wont fragment properly. Low velocity rounds require mass to generate energy, or cross section to cause expansion......back to shotgun/pistol.