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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
The History Channel did such a good portrayal of him i bought his Auto Biography.
This is not the kindly old man you were brought up to believe.
Washington: to the American People.
The thirteen colony's at this point have passed a Constitution .In it are the bill of rights ,the first 10 amendments to this Constitution are your GOD given rights.
As Americans ,Defend these rights or remove your self from this field so that i may.
Anyone not adhering to these rights is an Enemy of this country ,and is to be presumed to be part of an occupying Government and should be eliminated ,or as a trader, and are to be hung.
In this Document you as Free men ,have the right ,granted you by the first three Amendments to guaranty your rights should your Government ever go astray ,and as Americans you will defend this Country should it ever stray from these Amendments as a whole.
As free men ,it is up to you ,or the Republic so many of you have died for will fail.
And you once again ,will live like dogs begging for the scraps that your master throws you.

Washington to the People of Charleston after the British re-captured it and ordered that the people turn in all their Arms.

People of Charleston ,Do not turn in your Arms ! Distributed among you is the Constitution your Colony signed onto.
In it, it allows you the right to bear arms ,its intention was to make sure the People of this new Government had the right to cast out any Government that isn't what free men have lived and died for to establish in this Continent ,and by this Document.
The people dictating to you ,are not Representatives of your Government ,and if you cant accept the document of your Government ,then leave these shores now with the oppressors as they soon shall be doing.
Free men dictate their own destiny ,Governments dictate it as they feel you need.
The Army i have massed outside your city is there to enforce the Constitution ,and i intend to do just that.
Brave ,free men ,will build this Nation ,and their bill of rights ensures them the rights they will have as GOD given.
And those who feel they shall change ,alter,or cancel anything in the Constitution of this nation of free men ,will be dealt with according to the laws of treason.
 

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The constitution wasn't passed until the late 1780s. Are you sure of the source of this work? Before this there were articles of confederation. Are you certain he said "constitution" and not "declaration"?

It sounds good, but I'd rather not use something someone made up to advance the cause of civil rights (including the one about keeping and bearing arms).

Check on that and see if you want to keep this thread going.
 

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If you are into this stuff, Phalanx, I recommend this audio that talks about the the Constitution from a slightly different perspective than what you hear in high school text books. Maybe not as much different perspective as just brings more things to light that other history books try to avoid or gloss over:

https://www.mises.org/mp3/lefevre/149.mp3

A second part of that audio:

https://www.mises.org/mp3/lefevre/150.mp3
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
At the time they did have the articles of Confederation , and the declaration of Independence.
Plus the Charter of what the early Nation felt were inalienable rights. They had the making of the charters, and even a congress at this time. In 1778 this same Congress under George Mason petitioned the King ,only to him him respond that we were all rebels.The constitution wasn't ratified until 1787 ,That was when they could get everyone to agree on its wording and intent. But the rights of free men separating themselves from tyranny were in existence ,and the first three Amendments were the first rights these men had in 1778.
Not called Amendments then ,but infallible rights granted all men Under God.
In order to be taken seriously by the rest of the world ,The Colony's had to have something showing their resolve . In 1778 it was the British who first used the word Constitutional rebel Government ,i guess it sort of stuck after that. The War was in full swing in the north ,SC being one of the Colony's had always enjoyed a quiet co-existence with the small Army the English had there ,that stopped when the British landed troops at Charleston.The General in charge failed miserably in offering any real resistance ,and his men either were deserting or declaring themselves Subjects of the Crown. Of course the Britt's told them to turn in there arms ,angering Washington to the North after the Battles they had fought. In asking Congress to pass a resolution into law with the help of wording from the court he in essence declared Martial Law.This is where Cherry tree George was not a nice fellow anymore ,any solder ,Militiaman ,or volunteer caught deserting or in sedition with the English was shot ,and he did this several times. A Prussian Officer who helped train Washington's Army was a great source of Inspiration and help to Washington in what it would take to keep this Army on the field ,and how to have it be taken seriously. Many think this Prussian was the one who said a good many things that Washington was reported as saying during this time ,or that he helped Washington in what needed to be said. In using the word Constitution ,this word was used a great deal before it was actually ratified.
The series on the History channel eluded to this also ,and the docu drama on A&E dove deeper into the relationship of Washington and this Prussian Officer ,and the what could be the dark side of Americas first President.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Lex i think a lot of glossing over is done by the schools these days.
Some very interesting facts were brought out by the History channel in their rendition of this.
The character played by Mel Gibson in the Patriot was not fictitious , in fact this man was so bent on revenge Washington nearly had to put a price on his head for killing British troops during times that cease fires were in effect.
Also they cleared up the fact the in that Movie where the British burned down that church with all those people in it ,, that was a set up ,done by French profiters and Indians in order to spur anger toward the British.
Also it brought out that Washington's Army had not been very successful in any battles against British troops ,and the Army under Benedict Arnold had achieved great success.
At one time Congress nearly removed Washington from his command ,and it was believed that is the reason that Prussian Officer arrived on the scene.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
In response to some emails pro and con i have received ,I called a Professor Of American History at a major University who had posted about this series on another forum .
Gun Forums are not the only ones i go to.
He was wondering about the reason this had been brought up now before the election on both the History Channel and on A&E .
The series seemed to be bringing up mostly the true side of the founding fathers ,and events in the creation of this Republic that had never really surfaced as far as what had been taught about these men.
Other people saw the one about Washington ,and the Professor said it caused a stir in his class of law students because it high lighted just how close Washington was to being dismissed ,something i wasn't taught in school.
Also how the right to bear arms was one thing Washington felt was one of the most important rights needed to keep this country from falling into just another rebellious Colony that the Crown had to put down.
I missed the one on Jefferson , one of the reasons he never would sign on to any articles set up by the new Republic was ,he felt that Lawyers should not be allowed to run for any Government office.
This was an ongoing argument between him and Madison ,Jefferson's reason for this was look at what that has done to the Country we wish to separate from. I believe he had a very good point there ,look at this mess today.
The Professor said that the speeches Washington gave were indeed factual ,but he didn't agree with the wording used in the series ,but no one could really say what or how he said them ,as they were given on a field ,in order to spur troops into fighting.
All we really have is what has been passed down through History ,but in all accounts they have the same theme.
When returning to class ,the Professor said he was asked a lot of questions ,what he replied to made a lot of sense.
Exactly what was this General going to do ? His Army and what was left of the SC militia were standing there holding Muskets.
The British Commander had issued an order under martial law for all Colonist not in British service to lay down ,or turn in their arms.
Anyone not doing so would be considered a Rebel ,and would be shot on site ,or hung if captured ,in any possession of arms.
A Currier read these orders to Washington's Army ,and told them to remove this Army from the field immediately ,That it was not recognized as an Army of any Nation and no quarter would be given.
Washington had to insure his troops that they were an Army ,and that they were solders of a sovereign nation.
His troops bought it ,or the Britt's pissed them off , even being out number two to one they kicked the shit out of the English that day ,and Washington fought with them side by side.
They pushed the Britt's back into Charleston harbor . Congress wanted to bestow some honorary position on Washington ,but he simply resined and retired to privet life .
Showing he meant what he said about a republic not having a King.
He later told his friend ,Franklin ,that he felt that the right to bear arms was the pinnacle of the trust that any Nation has between its citizens ,and itself. And without that trust no Republic would ever survive.
Later in 1787 when the Constitution was indeed ratified , Ben Franklin was asked (Mr franklin ,what have you wrought ?)
His response was ( A republic ,lets see how long you can keep it ).
 

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OK...not to beat a dead horse, but the Articles of Confederation weren't passed until after the major fighting was over. Washington never got down to SC, although his instructions were to keep the British tied up there for as long as possible (much as he did for years in the north).

He was faced with the fact that they were all traitors to Great Britain, and they were all patriots to a new nation they were forming. The difference is that they won so they got to write the history.

Look more into the funding battles the Continental Congress had, plus the political battles waged to keep Washington in place as CinC.

The Battle of Camden in SC was a defining moment in the war, and broke the British in the south.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
If he never made it to SC ,why did he have orders to keep them tied up if he was never there.
I need to get you a mans number ,i am sure he would love to talk to you.
I sent your reply to him and all he came back with was WHAT??
The basis for the Confederation were started as far back as 1761.
The talks with the France started around 1770 ,and Washington did make it to Northern SC to block any retreat or advance to the North.
Pinning the English into a defensive mode as you are right in saying Camden ,and leaving them only the path to the harbors to the east.
Even the Library of Congress says some of the articles of what would become the Constitution were drafted in 1776.
By lamp light ,by a few ,and sent by currier on horseback to one person or another.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
DL021 : The individual i am emailing this to is saying that you have a good knowledge about Dates.
But those are dates marking mile stones in Documents ,Pacts ,and events that before that time would have been suicide.
In that it doesn't mean they didn't exist ,if they hadn't how could the founding fathers convince anyone that this was to be a free nation?
Or even a nation at all ,and if they didn't have something to tell the men dieing for this cause other than dreams and wishes ,or fairy's at the bottom of the garden ,no one would have followed these men.
Like my friend says ,How can you execute a man for deserting a Country according to you that didn't exist?
Also what about the letters and documents the British captured from riders going from one place or the other ?
I guess these men who made this country all got on the INTERNET and worked this all out in a couple of days ,because the way you say it it seems this stuff just popped up over night.
I don't think they even had Mr Marconi back then.
I would love to have a meaningful discussion with you ,but don't write us off as not knowing anything. I never go by the beaten path ,it all has a beginning some where.And like you i am a History buff .
My wife got me my own TV because i watch the History channel ,A&E ,Discovery ,and i go on the web sometimes and find things there or in books that they didn't even mention.
On a Civil War Re-enactors site i found things buried in books about the USS Monitor and the CSS Virginia ,when i scanned the books pages and posted them they freaked.
The Battle of San Juan Hill ,I had accounts of Breech Loading Cannon being used , Web Ferrets told me no way ,So i posted the pics and accounts. also the fact the Black troops were issued a trap door Springfield going up against the 7x57 bolt action rifle.
In the end you are not wrong ,but i am not either, so i hope we can establish that fact ,compare notes as friends ,and find out what really was the case.
Isn't that what the research of History is all about ?
 

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Phalanx...I'm not looking for anything but friendly discussion. I like the fact that you're interested in history, as learning history can prevent us from repeating past mistakes, and even more important repeat the processes that led to success in the past.

As far as Washington goes, he issued orders for the southern campaigns as he was the CinC for all the Continental Armies, and he needed the British troops in the south to stay there and not come North to pincer him. The war wasn't fought only in a three state area, and everything was fairly interconnected. By keeping Cornwallis busy and eventually winning (under Greenes command) a major victory at Cowpens (I mistakenly said Camden earlier so I'm not perfect) the Continental Army was able to prevent a tie up between the southern British forces and their northern army, and it also kept Cornwallis (recognized as one of their top generals) away from the northern theater.

In re the rifles of the Spanish American War you'll have to note it wasn't just the troops under Pershing that had the single shot rifles....most of the US troops had these. The 1st Volunteer Cavalry didn't because they were private raised and funded rather lavishly. A good number of troops still had Civil War era pieces. We weren't ready for that war, although it went a long way towards healing the north/south rift by placing both sides in combat against a common enemy again. War is hell.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I have said the same thing about the troops using the single shot 45/70 rifles.
A lot of the guys i said that to on another forum said BS. But i posted Field reports to the contrary.
The Black troops caught the most hell out of that ,they were sent into what resulted in a cross fire.
I am sure the Army was still segregated at that time.
Like the Buffalo Soldiers that were sent to Arz. & N.Mex. to fight the Apache.
Some were even given the old muzzle loading rifles , and they were not given much ammo for either.
They really got their ass kicked in that one.
The rifle the troops you referred to at San Juan were using the 30/40 Craig's ,but even those were no match for the 7x57 Mouser.
Basically our placement of Artillery was the one thing we did have going for us in the Battle.
 
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