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Discussion Starter #1
Gotcha ;) thought i was gonna brag on it didn't you ?
You guys need not lose any sleep over this one for SURE.
It is Bow Wow ,Arff Arff ,for sure.
This 2k nightmare needs to be sold for about the cost of a Raven pistol.
Of course my M4 worked great out of the box ,but it is a gun that has been around awhile ,and as far as the new types ,your XCR is right on its heels.
Your customer service has been 5 star , 6k rounds of about everything on the market , in a Desert ,after the break in ,not a FTF ,or FTL ,or eject.
Same with the Bushy though ,but trying to heat them up and see which one fails first was just a waste on ammo ,it ain't gonna happen.
This AUG Clown !! oops i mean Clone , had to be repaired right out of the box ,and it uses bolts like a 12x24 that you just are not going to find if you need one.
Open lugs with holes in the receiver for accessory's with no plugs in them so the gun fills with dirt ,and you cant find a 12x24 plug that looks good. Then you find out why ,no one uses 12x24 because it looks like a 1/4x20 and will start a bolt in it ,then crack the receiver.
Guys put 1913 rails on the side where the lugs are ,with the special bolts MSAR makes ,then put a Laser or light on the rail ,bump the light a little and the lugs break off the receiver.
Yup ,if i were you i would sure be afraid of this one.
 

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The MSAR is not an improved version of anything. It is s reverse engineered near copy of a rifle that is 31 years old.

I chuckle everytime a NEW MSAR owner goes on about how great it is and how much better it is than the original AUG, XCR, AR, and most of whom never handled an AUG. I'm on my second AUG and I'd be the first to say 'ho-hum' about the AUG. They are nice and I can go around and talk in funny accents while shooting it. It isn't the best and parts hard to come by. This is the only rifle with a worse trigger pull than that of an XCR except that doesn't have a 'guess the 2 stage'.

Bullpup has coolness factor and it is compact. The AUG has some inovative features that are now being seen on newer DESIGN weapons such as the XCR, SCAR, ACR with a removeable barrel and first to use optics as a standard. But that is about it. Obviously it's been around since 1977 and the AUG hasn't exactly taken over by storm nor has it gone through any real modernization, might not even need it yet. It does have that 'unobtanum' factor in the US and maybe these companies that are churning them out think they will get a chunk of the market because of that.

At 2K a pop, with the XCR already available, every conceiveable type of AR available, and now the ACR just over the horizon all at a lower price followed by the SCAR, I don't know what they were hoping to do. They are about 8 years too late in coming out with this gun. Add to the fact that MSAR lost their #1 man (in my eyes) inexplicably, and recently another top level man just walked away, from a company that never made guns, and an owner transfers the comany to his wife, and has had doubtful dealings in the past. Add to that, the MSAR being all propietary to include it's own mags that are not 100% interchangeable with it's intended copy. Don't they notice the rest of the gun industry going all STANAG mag? Even the Sig 556 and AXR vapor rifle uses (will) STANAG mags.

Say what ya'll want to say, and my POV isn't an XCR fanboy POV, but that of someone who has dabbled in da business and have been on top of it for decades. I don't need to shoot an MSAR to have my point. I did see one and handled it and I would agree that it does look better than an AUG. But in retrospect the WASR looks like crap and it shoots reliably, uses standard Ak mags and costs about 4 bones. Besides, do some searching, or stumbling as I do, and you'll see that the MSAR are still having issues that require to be shipped back to the company and appears to be picky with ammo. Things I don't experience with either AUG's of mine.

Maybe to some it's the finest shooting gun eevvvarr with no malfunctions eevvvaarr, but there is a lot more to it than that to design, produce, sell, and provice CS for the future. What I do know is that MSAR has spent serious coinage to get the equipment necessary to make the STG556. I don't know where the money came from. Hopefully not verything has been hocked. The 'AUG' copy is not a simple, or cheap, gun to reproduce. MSAR should be like other companies and that is to make money. I don't see any reasonably sized agency or military that will take the MSAR seriously. They will more likely with a Sig 556 than an MSAR and I don't see that happening either. Care to mention how many gun manufacturers have come and gone?

The XCR also has some issues, and so will the ACR, and to some extent the SCAR. But these are new designs. For the MSAR's fanboys, get back with me in one year and tell me that you are still excited about the STG556 then as you are now or will something else take it's place by then? I don't think that it is a total POS. I'm sure it's finely made and it does look 'fabulous', but too many internal issues, too expensive, too propietory parts and mags, a reversed engineered NEAR copy of a rifle design that hasn't been overtly acclaimed nor accepted.

I didn't jump on the XCR when it came out. In fact I was a bit behind during it's development. A lot has come about these last few years with a lot more to look foward to. I actually waited until the Sig 556 was unveiled and I said the heck with it and the choice was simple after a 6 month wait'n'see. For that money I wanted a near 551 clone and I could have lived with that it took STANAG mags. This was all before the MSAR. I've known about the MSAR long ago from Pete Athens. I kept tabs as it developed. The deal breaker with me on the MSAR was the parts and mags are not interchangeable with the AUG. That's it. To make things worse they kept that hush-hush a while after it was unveiled and avoiding answering that question. If (when) MSAR tanks at some time in the future at least the 'parts pool' would have been a bit larger but now the MSAR's will be 'unique' at best.

In my opinion, no one can compare the XCR with the STG556. The XCR is a new design, that only shares a somewhat quick change barrel, or at least that it can be pulled fairly easily for maintenance and mods. The XCR takes STANAG mags, has stupid-fast reloads, apparently those are things being followed by the ACR and SCAR. The AUG was 'modular' back before 'modular' was a concept used in weapons and the modular standard has been pushed a lot farther by the 'new' ones. The AUG mags are slow to change out as an AK and you have to take your eyes off your sights to do it. The XCR is built like a brick crap house and doesn't require 'special tools' to do a complete dissasembly and assembly.

The XCR is amongst the 'new' guns; there with the SCAR and ACR, maybe piston AR's with monolothic uppers. The MSAR/AUG is amongst the 'now old' guns, like the original AR and Hk setup.

As far as the STG556 future, it will be extremely tough for that to be competetively sold, it only has a small market niche, and time will only tell as to any other issues shall arise. Once that niche gets satisfied, patience/CS is exhausted, or 'da other' AUG copy gets released I don't predict easy times for MSAR. I do know they are pushing some newer concepts out there like pistol calibers and the latest version of the near-AUG. I wish them luck though.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I don't see taking the STG 556 seriously at all ,nor the FS2000 or PS90 .
They are toys that look cool ,and just more fodder for the bull pup scrap pile.
No way would i take any of those three guns , if my life depended on it.
The Sig had a lot of problems at first also ,and so did the XCR.
But out of all the radical design ARs out there the XCR was the first to stick that type weapon make in America ,on the market while all the others were talking about it.
Terra has replaced a couple of small parts on my gun ,and i have literally hammered the crap out of this gun ,and i would trust it big time.
It has been so hot i thought the hand guards were going to melt ,and it still fired.
It and my Bush Master and Rock River have proven themselves and the XCR to me is a classic.
Dirt ,rain ,Mud ,Sand ,dropping on rocks from a horse , and i didn't know the mud was inside the rifle until i heard the grinding ,but she was still firing.
And she cleaned up like a new penny.
You want to test a gun bring it to the deserts of N.M. and south Texas on horse back.
 

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...You want to test a gun bring it to the deserts of N.M. and south Texas on horse back.
How 'bout Yuma. There is a reason Yuma Proving Grounds is here. That and GM is moving their hot weather test facility here too. Plus other.
 

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The MSAR AUG-like object will go down in firearms history as the HAC-7 of the early 21st century. Hell, it's not even that innovative. In 20 years, they might be worth something to collectors of oddball firearms--like the HAC-7. There're worse reasons to own guns, but this isn't the way of the future.

Haven't heard much about the AXR (or whatever--geezus, give these things a real name) so far. Of course, I haven't looked very hard. As has been alluded to, the AUGs day in the sun is pretty much past. It's an interesting gun and with the FAMAS showed the bullpup as a viable concept. But these guns aren't AUGs. As pieces of interest, I suppose they'd serve, but the real innovation is with the XCR, SCAR, and ACR (I prefered Masada; the ACR was another funky Steyr project).
 

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The MSAR AUG-like object will go down in firearms history as the HAC-7 of the early 21st century. Hell, it's not even that innovative. In 20 years, they might be worth something to collectors of oddball firearms--like the HAC-7. There're worse reasons to own guns, but this isn't the way of the future.
Haven't heard much about the AXR (or whatever--geezus, give these things a real name) so far. Of course, I haven't looked very hard. As has been alluded to, the AUGs day in the sun is pretty much past. It's an interesting gun and with the FAMAS showed the bullpup as a viable concept. But these guns aren't AUGs. As pieces of interest, I suppose they'd serve, but the real innovation is with the XCR, SCAR, and ACR (I prefered Masada; the ACR was another funky Steyr project).


Uummm...crap!! See, for all that I know about guns it never ceases to amaze me to learn of something new. I HAD to google it and I came up with this:

http://www.biggerhammer.net/hac7/

But check out the pictorials. I will not comment other than it looks too familiar to another gun I know of:

http://www.biggerhammer.net/hac7/pictorial/

Great info Sloan441. This sure was an eye opener!
 

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There is a review in Guns and Weapons for Law Enforcement (May 2008) that says the quality is good, they had no jams or FTF/FTEs and reccomend the rifle. The armory supervisor for Blackwater Worldwide even participated in the tests.

Personally I feel the AUG is a great rifle, take the stock sight off and drop on a SUSAT and the thing would be a drill. It's old but so are the FAL and M14 and they are stille ffective rifles. I commend MSAR for making the AUG, even as a clone, available for people to own.

I like the bulpup design as it allows a short weapon to retain effective accuracy and performance, particularly in 5.56. The L85 has a 20" barrel and is as effective as the full size M16 in a package that's shorter than a collapsed M4.
 

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I am just going to say this and be done with it.

I own both a PS90 and a MSAR.

Both of these rifles have fired perfectly out of the box for well over 1k rounds. Hell, my ps90 has probably 2k plus rounds and has been SBR'ed, never once has it had an issue.

You want to say the MSAR is not a "Real" Aug..... Ok, no prob. All I am saying if it look like a duck and qu........ well you get the idea.

Everyone always seem SO willing to slam either this company or the rifle and I just do not get it. The gun works great, shoots great, and looks enough like an AUG to me. I always wanted one and to me springing 2k for a used USR (I really hate that extra plastic) made no sense when I could simply buy the MSAR brand new. I even got the LE kit with the pelican case and extra mags (Mall ninja status increased 10 fold by ultra cool tactical hard side case at range).

I am going to put the flame suit on because I know whats coming. "Tony Marrifone sucks!" "It did not need a bolt assist!" "All the parts are proprietary!". I have read it all before when the guys on ARF told me I was a moron and needed to get my money back ASAP!

It turned out just fine. I would order a black one if I could afford it.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Yup, the POS90 works great for a semi auto 22mag.
And the guy who designed it must surly have an XXX rated ,adult toy site somewhere. And dumping the brass right at your feet ? Ahhh but FNH don't miss a thing do they ? so they sell that little catch me ,,F,,me bag ,that catches 25 empties from a 100 round mag. And a real tactical SWAT sight ,if you wake up and have a high dew point it was worthless till the sun warmed it up ,a solar rifle :eek:
And the FS2000 ? every football needs a 30 rd mag hanging from it.
I like the way it drools the empties out the front like it has mad cow disease .
The Dutch Army was very impressed with this feature also ,and sent FNH back home telling them they would call them real soon. :duh: And the iron sight makes a great toothpick.
My mistake was owning them both for a very short time ,but i lucked out and sold them while the price was up.
That pistol was a real honey also ,i loved the little blue plastic safety switch made by Cracker Jax , when you slide it into your holster it breaks away making sure the gun stays on safety.
Like a guy who works for Glock said (FNH needs to go home and build High Powers ,they seem to do that right ).
 

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I have an FS2000, among others, and love it. Better balance than either the AUG, FAMAS or the L85. For me it's been reliable as well and presents all the benefits of a bulpup with the accuracy of a longer barrel. The Arabs love them as the action keeps dust out rather well, but admittedly they don't tend to throw rifles onto rocks when sitting on horses. I didn't see that in the manual of arms but what the heck, maybe it's the new 'Present Arms' manover. I was always trained to care for my rifle rather than treat it like a piece of shit. Even with the L85 I never had a jam in the field, care and consideration kept me alive.

The P90 was designed for a specific task and it does that rather well, criticise all you want, FN sales are doing well. Dropping brass out the bottom allows ambidextrous use, as does throwing it out the front. They are both good solutions. The FN MAG has done it for decades and no one got upset. If you really need a shell bag that can handle more than 25 cases, then make one, it's hardly difficult!

Yes, their pistol is a bit cheap but it sounds more like the holster fit was a bit crappy. There is a LEO department down here that has standardised on that pistol.

FNH also do a lot of other things right, look at their government contracts....and history. Fn49, Hi-Power, FNP, FN MAG, FAL, and now their newer contracts... Also when Gaston Glock came out with the G17, every one thought he was crazy. G17 was the 17th design and since then no innovation at all, same old thing regurgetated.

Ultimately opinions are like assholes, we all have one and if we all thought the same then we couldn't have right or wrong.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
You ever have a horse loose its balance on ice covered rocks ? you will drop a lot more than your rifle trying to position yourself so the animal doesn't land on you!
No you will not find that in any manual of arms ,but failure to do so ?you will find in the manual of cripple or dead.
And the pistol holster was made for the gun by Galco ,and i am not the first to report any of these problems.
If you ever come after me please bring those guns ,we love to watch sand grind up plastic guns with drool tubes that fill up with the crap.
OOpps ,i forgot plum about the Battle Hardened Arabs and when i was in the Gulf War all the raw courage they showed.
Oh yea ,i just throw my guns all over the place ,use em as hammers ,string Barb Wire with them ,i mean its only a Ranch in the Mescalaro Desert ,it dont mean nothin.
Im not a Glock fan but they do hold up well ,but hell what do i know after 20 years as a weapons officer ?
 

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No I haven't. I've only ridden horses in the desert and in Africa. In deserts I much prefer camels anyway. Faster and more hardy.

Sling or rifle holster......

Ok on the Galco, but surely it's still a holster issue.

Oh, grow up!
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Your the one whineing ,someone made fun of your toys :(
The one i really like is my M14 , and i have seen this Desert go from 102 in the day ,to 17 at night.
Everything that flys ,bites ,or can grow a barb lives here.
Sorry the 2000 just didn't cut it.
 

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Now that we can agree on. The M14 is a nice rifle. Personally I prefer the FAL but they both hold equal status in my mind.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
FN FAL is OK ,the times i have used one it was a good gun ,the newer ones i think are a lot better when they did away with the rat tail bolt and improved the trigger ,I'm not going to argue about that ,it is a good rifle.
In the Gulf we got to use some G3s ,the Kuwaitis had ,not being gas operated they performed very well but the rollers would wear quickly.
AK ? well its an AK what more can you say.
Its a good gun but not an all around gun ,my last years in the service was with some of the former Soviet Satellites ,they were the first i saw that took the 5.56 to a tighter twist and use hollow points in their testing,it took this round to a whole new level.
It didn't just wound anymore ,it splattered its target and the exit wounds looked like it was done with a 30cal.
Police or patrol ,i can see how the 2000 may work well for someone who is in and out of a vehicle a lot ,or in an urban theater ,but not here.
 

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Dude the HAC-7 is awsome, I wish they made more then 350 of them. I want one... Any one know why Holloway went under?
Aside from the controls, this gun looks kinda like a primitive XCR... There really isnt much info out there about them...
 

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You mean the 5.45x39 with the hollow tip FMJ?
 

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Discussion Starter #19
They tested both , Russia was the first country to start using Hollow points ,The Haig had a fit as it was against the Geneva Convention.
Russia responded as it was only Match ammo and they couldn't control its use.
America soon followed ,thus Black Hills.
A one in 7 twist with a 75gr heavy wall HP ,is not pretty.
 

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Are you refering to the open tip hollow points (aka SMK 77gr) or the 5.45 closed tip hollow point FMJ (aka Russian 5.45 ball)?

The open tip hollow points in 168 gr and 175 gr projectiles as well as the SMK 77 projectile are ballistic hollowpoints and don't aid expansion at all. At best they help the round destabilize on impact and if velocity is high enough they cause cannelatured rounds to tumble and fragment and non-cannelature rounds to begin tumbling.

The closed tip hollow point in 5.45 ball FMJ rounds is supposed to deform and cause the round to generate a curved tumble and hence damage. Doesnt really work too well though as mostly the rounds go straight through like a 62gr 5.56 below 2400fps. 7.62x39 is far more effective, just ask the Afghans.
 
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