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I think Hornady has a right to require their employees to do whatever they want as part of their job. I think employees have a right not to work there.

I also think it's beyond lame to blame what is essentially a non-binding press release for your actions. Hornady needs to say what they want to do and accept responsibility for their actions. If they want to require vaccination, that's their right--but they ought to say so and accept responsibility, rather than trying to blame president Brandon for what they are doing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
I think Hornady has a right to require their employees to do whatever they want as part of their job. I think employees have a right not to work there.

I also think it's beyond lame to blame what is essentially a non-binding press release for your actions. Hornady needs to say what they want to do and accept responsibility for their actions. If they want to require vaccination, that's their right--but they ought to say so and accept responsibility, rather than trying to blame president Brandon for what they are doing.
I do too....to an extent.

Government's main reason to exist in our system is to protect our rights....clearly, they are not only failing in that regard, but forcing the issue in others (WoD comes to mind). But, bodily autonomy is a natural, negative right, despite what the Constitution doesn't say or merely implies. But I do see the valid argument that private businesses are not government and you have no right to demand (for example) your natural, negative right to free speech or firearms from your employer.

However, I do not believe even a private business has the right to force me to ingest a substance that may well be hazardous to my health, unless my job is directly related to ingesting said substance (as in paid to do a study on an experimental drug and made aware of potential health consequences [informed consent], for instance) as a condition of my employment. The remedy is that I'm free to find another job, but there should at least be some protection for people's livelihoods in instances such as this vaccine.

IMO, this falls under the category of the government protecting citizens from forced ingestion of questionable substances in the same way it regulates via the FDA for drugs and foods when there's a question of safety....though the WoDs doesn't give any credence to the bodily autonomy argument...but frankly, that...along with abortion, end of life care, dietary choices, sexual conduct between consenting adults, etc. should all fall under that umbrella.
 

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Making the same bad decision as hospitals.

Six months ago, I listened to Vista Outdoors CEOs tell us that they could not hire more employees to make ammo, because it took years of training to jam a primer into the bottom of a case, turn that case over and fill it with powder, and then jam a bullet down into it.

So, any ammo manufacturer who knowingly makes a decision to cut their extremely valuable, highly experienced, well trained workforce, in the middle of a ammo shortage, that has been partially caused or lengthened for lack of trained workers...

...that person is an Idiot with a capital "I".
 

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I think Hornady has a right to require their employees to do whatever they want as part of their job. I think employees have a right not to work there.
I'm just curious what part of their jobs include getting injected against their will with questionable substances. Hornady is going this route because the government is threatening them with loss of revenue and the owners are apparently the type of people who put their personal wealth ahead of individuals' rights to make their own personal healthcare decisions. I own a manufacturing facility that employs about 175 people. They've worked all the way through COVID. I'd be a real jerk if I allowed them to do that but didn't stand up against those wanting to threaten them with financial ruin if they don't do as the frequently wrong government healthcare directors mandate. We're working with attorneys to get a plan together to fight the Biden administration and OSHA in court when/if they ever actually come out with the mandate. Meanwhile, we've told our employees that nobody is going to lose their job as we absolutely will not mandate a shot. If the mandate somehow does actually make it through which seems unlikely based on the law and prior court cases, everyone will just be tested regardless of whether they've had the vaccine that's not really a vaccine or not. We're not going to ask people their shot status nor are we going to divide our people in to two groups.

I wonder if Steve Hornady will pay for consequential damages caused by adverse reactions to the jab.

I've been a loyal Hornady customer for literally three decades. It looks like I'm going to have to find a new company to purchase my reloading gear from.
 

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I was thinking the same thing, as Bret said above looks like I won't ever be spending money with Hornady again, too bad I liked their products. Makes me glad I just bought a Lyman reloading kit instead of Hornaday.
 

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I'm just curious what part of their jobs include getting injected against their will with questionable substances.
I have no idea. Presumably, that's up to Hornady to decide, because, as the employer, it decides what the requirements (and duties) of the job are. I have no idea what is necessary to their operations. I don't have a right to tell another employer what the duties of their employees are (or are not), any more than someone else has a right to come into my business and tell me what I can (or cannot) require of my employees. The employee-employer relationship involves two people (or one person and an organization) and no one else. It's a totally voluntary, consensual relationship. If either party doesn't like what the other is offering them, or doesn't like what the other is asking of them, they are free to leave the relationship. That's the business of the two of them--not of me, and certainly not of the government.

Likewise, the relationship of a business and it's customer is a relationship only between the two of them. If I don't like what I'm getting from a business, or I don't like something they are doing, or I just don't like their logo, I'm free to take my business elsewhere. It's a simple, voluntary relationship that doesn't involve anyone but the business and the customer. If you're not happy with Hornady's position (and I'm not), then you are free to take your business elsewhere (and so am I).
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
I have no idea. Presumably, that's up to Hornady to decide, because, as the employer, it decides what the requirements (and duties) of the job are. I have no idea what is necessary to their operations. I don't have a right to tell another employer what the duties of their employees are (or are not), any more than someone else has a right to come into my business and tell me what I can (or cannot) require of my employees. The employee-employer relationship involves two people (or one person and an organization) and no one else. It's a totally voluntary, consensual relationship. If either party doesn't like what the other is offering them, or doesn't like what the other is asking of them, they are free to leave the relationship. That's the business of the two of them--not of me, and certainly not of the government.

Likewise, the relationship of a business and it's customer is a relationship only between the two of them. If I don't like what I'm getting from a business, or I don't like something they are doing, or I just don't like their logo, I'm free to take my business elsewhere. It's a simple, voluntary relationship that doesn't involve anyone but the business and the customer. If you're not happy with Hornady's position (and I'm not), then you are free to take your business elsewhere (and so am I).
And I think that's really what this all breaks down to in the most basic principle. Thank you Tom for pointing it out so succinctly.

The real issue in this instance is government has gotten involved and made a press release of an edict they may or may not actually put into place to scare businesses into compliance so they can then coerce and force employees to do something against their will.

The problem is the coercion and force that the government is fomenting. Should that be occurring in a "free" society? You're free to leave your job but it may make your life very difficult if all employers are requiring your compliance to become employed. Then, you'll have to look into something where you're your own boss. I guess, in a way, that's the ultimate freedom.

This does appear to be a slippery slope though. If government has the ability to force you to do as they will or not be eligible for gainful employment or say, switch you to a digital currency, they can effectively starve you out. When you threaten to take the food out of my family's mouths....I'm not sure I'm morally obliged not to violently resist you.

***ETA***and what are the logical consequences of leaving a sizeable percentage of the population with nothing to lose? The law of unintended consequences doesn't much care how we feel about it...though in this case, I think TPTB are hoping for a non-peaceful uprising as it will afford an opportunity for even more draconian measures and curtailment of liberty. A peaceful one would completely undermine them by comparison.....yet that 'sizeable' portion is probably single digit percentile and a peaceful revolution would need A LOT more real support than that.
 
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I have no idea. Presumably, that's up to Hornady to decide, because, as the employer, it decides what the requirements (and duties) of the job are. I have no idea what is necessary to their operations. I don't have a right to tell another employer what the duties of their employees are (or are not), any more than someone else has a right to come into my business and tell me what I can (or cannot) require of my employees.
According to the letter, Hornady was requiring the shot in order to keep government contracts, not for operational reasons. I agree with your response in general, but reality is that employees and employers have basic rights that can't be violated and are not negotiable. For example, an employer can't use the threat of financial ruin to compel an employee to do sexual favors or require an employee to be on birth control. Another example is that it's generally illegal for employees to stage wildcat strikes. A friend of mine has worked for a well known Japanese manufacturer for about 25 years. About five years ago his boss (who happened to have moved here from California) informed him that he was not allowed to have a gun in his car in the company parking lot. My friend nicely informed him that Georgia law makes it illegal for employers to prevent employees from having guns in their personal cars. In my view, personal healthcare decisions such as vaccines fall in to this same protected rights category.
 

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Just look at all the churn, stress, wasted time/resources/money, distrust, hostile environments, etc., etc. that have already been created within families, friends, neighbors, employees/employers by this!!!

In my opinion, driving this “division” was/is intentional…for what purpose and to what ends is debatable, but “they” knew this would be the outcome.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Just look at all the churn, stress, wasted time/resources/money, distrust, hostile environments, etc., etc. that have already been created within families, friends, neighbors, employees/employers by this!!!

In my opinion, driving this “division” was/is intentional…for what purpose and to what ends is debatable, but “they” knew this would be the outcome.
Agreed. What TPTB are most concerned about is the people uniting and figuring out that all the division is intentional....keep us divided and focused on hating one another rather than the evils they foist upon us.
 
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I was thinking the same thing, as Bret said above looks like I won't ever be spending money with Hornady again, too bad I liked their products. Makes me glad I just bought a Lyman reloading kit instead of Hornaday.
This is where I'm at, I will support any person or company that decides that people have a choice regarding vaccines.
Today I made a donation to In and Out Burger to help those who have lost their jobs I'm going there for dinner tonight even though I didn't find it that great the only time I ate there.
Weird thing is they are based out of So Cal, while I was on the phone with their corporate office they also told me they help with child trafficking, substance abuse issues among other things.
This country is split so far and so many issues maybe it's time set the red States and the blue States decide to go their own ways
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
This is where I'm at, I will support any person or company that decides that people have a choice regarding vaccines.
Today I made a donation to In and Out Burger to help those who have lost their jobs I'm going there for dinner tonight even though I didn't find it that great the only time I ate there.
Weird thing is they are based out of So Cal, while I was on the phone with their corporate office they also told me they help with child trafficking, substance abuse issues among other things.
This country is split so far and so many issues maybe it's time set the red States and the blue States decide to go their own ways
Look on the bottom of your cup (if you get a soda that is...I usually have water b/c I don't really drink soda anymore). ;)

Oh, and if you haven't had a couple of 4x4s....you haven't lived, lol.

And JFYI for everyone....Krispy Kreme just announced requiring COVID "vaccine" for all employees....not surprising considering they were offering a free doughnut to anyone who would take the jab.
 

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Look on the bottom of your cup (if you get a soda that is...I usually have water b/c I don't really drink soda anymore). ;)

Oh, and if you haven't had a couple of 4x4s....you haven't lived, lol.

And JFYI for everyone....Krispy Kreme just announced requiring COVID "vaccine" for all employees....not surprising considering they were offering a free doughnut to anyone who would take the jab.
I will look at the bottom of my cup, I'm not sure what I'm going to find but I think I will have to get a soda now.
I have no idea in hell what a 4 by 4 is but I will take your recommendation and try it. By chance do you know about their secret menu?
As for Krispy Kreme I've never liked him I think they're very basic, here in Ogden where I'm at we have a donut shop called the Hole, amazing doesn't do it justice
 

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Look on the bottom of your cup (if you get a soda that is...I usually have water b/c I don't really drink soda anymore). ;)

Oh, and if you haven't had a couple of 4x4s....you haven't lived, lol.

And JFYI for everyone....Krispy Kreme just announced requiring COVID "vaccine" for all employees....not surprising considering they were offering a free doughnut to anyone who would take the jab.
Thanks Sean now my mouth has stretch marks
It was better than I remembered.
I like the bottom of the cup it's a nice touch, I stated looking everything over found another on the bottom of the fries. Didn't see anything on the wrapper for the burger maybe should of checked the bun.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Thanks Sean now my mouth has stretch marks
It was better than I remembered.
I like the bottom of the cup it's a nice touch, I stated looking everything over found another on the bottom of the fries. Didn't see anything on the wrapper for the burger maybe should of checked the bun.
Yeah, I don't generally eat carbs so I get my 4x4s "protein style"....just wrapped in lettuce...pickles and cheese only, less calories and a LOT more meat flavor...I almost can't eat a burger with a bun now. It just mutes the flavor too much. Downside is: it is messier.

Yeah the 4x4 and protein style are both off the 'secret menu'. It's a relatively cheap addition for a fuck ton more protein (and fat, lol). They used to let you do as many as you wanted (8x8 anyone?) but now, they limit you to 4.
 
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