[Jbpark55]

This sounds like a good idea.

It's called the "6.8x45mm Kramer Urban Combat Cartridge"
By Kramer Defense (KD), a Division of Kramer Cartridge & Carbine LLC (KCC)


http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1143

 

[johnny mac]

hell yeah! only problem is Robinson's production capability-not knocking the company, just a fact. Here's a question for the experts (probably Alex or Terra)-I assume that there are patents on barrel design that prevent custom barrel makers from producing XCR barrels, but maybe I'm wrong. Since this caliber would use the same mags and bolt, all you would need is an unchambered 6.8 barrel to be finished with a different chamber. I have been hesitating on the 6.8 since I think the 6.5 wll be much better, but this wouldn't require the expense of dedicated mags or a new bolt. Could or would Robinson allow barrel makers to produce a barrel-maybe from an unfinished Robinson blank? I'm sure there are a few of us who would invest the time and money, and if it was a success, it wouldn't take much to put in production.

 

[TerraShrewsbury]

I don't know if Alex would consider that. Patents do make for a big pain in the ass, though. I agree on that. We had to go through a lot to make the 6.5.

Right now, we have soooooo many projects going.... I would bring this up for consideration once all our goodies are shipping.

 

[MickeyC]

Unless it is picked up by the military or one of the big manufacturers brass would be a bitch to get/make.

 

[Guest]

there will always be something new and "better". It has to be better because it's new right? well shoot, lets do that then... :duh:

 

[gunner69]

A 6.5x45 might be a tad better? Just a thought. :ninja:

 

[Guest]

A 6.5x45 might be a tad better? Just a thought. :ninja:

I know that they did try this during the development of the 6.8spc. they rejected it for some reason and went with a different overall case to maximize the overall efficiency that they could not get from the standard 556 case. If I were to guess i would say that brass thickness was not sufficient and could lead to separations or reduced reloadings.

they really did thier homework on the 6.8spc guys. a lot of thought went into it and it is probably as perfect a combat cartridge as one can get at this time. :2cents:

 

[MickeyC]

I'd agree. Apart from it's 400-500 rainbow drop it is definately one of the better intermediate cartridges out there.

 

[johnny mac]

Mickey, it looks like brass could be formed from 5.56.

Gunner, I think there is a link to a 6.5x45 article in Defense Review in another post, and that might be better.

Jack, I agree with you to a certain extent. If either the 6.8SPC or 6.5G were adopted by the military, ammo should become plentiful and (relatively) cheap, but both require different mags and bolts, and the SPC appears to have some issues which led to a reduction in loadings, pretty much voiding the advantage of the larger case based on the 30 Rem. It seems that any new design will still be faced with the limitations of Stoner's system(non-adjustable gas system, relatively weak bolt design) that the XCR has resolved. The big advantage of the 6.5 or 6.8 based on the 5.56 case would be magazine and bolt compatability. Even the bolt isn't that bis a deal, but being able to use 5.56 mags and brass would be a huge advantage. I share your frustration over a "new and improved" cartridge coming out every week, but on the other hand plenty of AR guys think that DI is okay, and if you can't live with it there are plenty of piston uppers available, but I think everyone here knows the XCR, though not well known or popular, beats them all hands down .

 

[variablebinary]

Unless it is picked up by the military or one of the big manufacturers brass would be a bitch to get/make.

Yep. The last thing Robarm needs is to start chasing wildcats.

5.56, 6.8, 5.45 and 6.5 are about all Robarm should be considering

 

[johnny mac]

I'm certainly not advocating Robinson dedicate resources to it (at least not until I get my 7.62 and 6.5 conversions ;D), but it wouldn't be bad if unchambered barrels were available for those willing to put in the time and money for experimentation. The 6.8 and to a significant extent the 6.5 were developed not by large companies' R&D departments, but by dedicated enthusiasts and small, innovative companies. I think the 6.8 and 6.5 are both great, but I think there is still room for improvement. No offense to the 6.8 fans, but the 6.5G, 260 Rem, 6.5 Creedmore, etc.-and the 6.5x55 for that matter -have pretty clearly established that there is something special about the 6.5 bore, and you don't really give up anything of consequence to the 6.8. Totally new magazines, bolts and brass are a big drawback and if the same performance can be squeezed out of a cartridge based on the 5.56, only the barrel would need to be changed. I don't know enough to know what the limiting factor ultimately is; the DI system lacks adjustability and the AR bolt seems weak. If 5.56 brass could withstand a pressure increase, an adjustable piston AR or an XCR might squeeze 6.5G performance out of a 5.56 based case. If the brass is a limiting factor, it could be strengthened by either reducing internal volume (like the 45 Super) or increasing the outside diameter, but not so much that it would no longer function out of a 5.56 magazine. It might not even be necessary to change the pressure or brass, it really depends on what is necessary to acheive the desired velocity. I might really be talking out of my a**, I would think Bill Alexander and the guys who developed the 6.8 probably tried it. I just think that the less that has to be changed, the better the chance that the military, or at least the commercial industry would really get behind it and turn it into a huge success. I've never been a fan of the 5.56 or the AR, but it's what we're stuck with as a starting platform.

 

[DSM]

Before the heavier bullets got a large following and the only real fodder for 5.56 was 55gr or 62gr some folks wildcatted the 6x45mm. It was easy to do I guess, just use a .243 expander to expand the neck and you were off to the races. You still had to keep a light bullet in .243/6mm terms, somewhere in the 75-90gr realm, but it definitely had more thump than the .22 cal slug. Had often thought about it but bulk components for .22 are still cheaper then .243.

 

[MickeyC]

Yes but why bother? Fire a 55g .223 through a 20" barrel and you get the velocity high enough to do serious damage.

 

[DSM]

Yes but why bother? Fire a 55g .223 through a 20" barrel and you get the velocity high enough to do serious damage.

Tru dat!  I don't want to get hit with a .22 rimfire either but given the choice.....

The choice of cartridge has to be weighed by several factors.  5.56 is always popular just because it is available pretty cheap relatively and if I can go all 1950's Civil Defense matches what's in the good guy's ammo pockets.  How far do you plan to shoot?  Do you plan to have to defeat body armor, soft or hard cover for security details and the like?  Hunters and their game, pelt damage, etc, etc. All sorts of questions to balance out and these are a few.

In the end, I think we all could care less what nifty gizmos and bullets other people choose as long as they are well practiced, know their strengths and weaknesses and are well practiced.  Yeah, I said that twice.

 

[MickeyC]

When I took the Royal Marine Sniper course, our solution to body armor was simple. Shoot the prick in the head.

Skill can overcome bad equipment but good equipment can't overcome a lack of skill.

 

[DSM]

when you have the time to line up the shot and a little more distance between you, great choice! When I was pushing the M24 for a little while we'd save the head shot for who was buying that night!

ever do any time over in the Stanford training area? We were all over that MOUT village almost every other week. (Or Operations in Built-Up Areas, OBUA, as you blokes called it! )

 

[MickeyC]

Oh yes, remember it well. We used to use it as a training point before going to Ireland. I also remember Imber Village down near Dartmoor as well. Did you ever use the German village set up at the Thetford training ground.

FIBUA - Fighting In Built Up Areas. You call it Military Operations in Urban Terrain.

I also did some time in a Texas facility around 80 miles north of Austin. Fort Patriot Warrior, I belive. Your tactics were different to ours. Lots of stacking.

 

[Guest]

I also did some time in a Texas facility around 80 miles north of Austin. Fort Patriot Warrior, I belive. Your tactics were different to ours. Lots of stacking.

IIRC i spent a little time a thetford myself. not doing anythig THAT fun tho.

What to the blokes do if they dont stack? I've always thought that the stack was what I would do to my enemy if i wanted to shoot them all at one time. never made too much sense to me.

 

[DSM]

FIBUA! That was the other one we always heard! It seemed the British forces weren't as concerned about safety as we were too. Nobody did anything crazy mind you, but we had to do ORM out the butt before anything happened. All the Regt folks would just up and go and get it done. I always liked taking new troops through the model house with all the boobytraps and strongpoint hardening. The other house that was reinforced was our punishment if we screwed up. I do recall seeing some of the Royal Marines training on checkpoints there at STANTA.

Don't remember using the German village I don't think. We borrowed a barracks out at Bodney a few times. Then out at Honnington and another RAF Regt base just down the road, can't remember the name but it had a smaller training area comparitively we used to use alot too. Great training, those guys were first class all the way.

After leaving the UK for a different unit in Georgia, a few friends I was stationed with up there ended up being ambassadors of sorts because we staged and eventually pushed into Iraq together with 2 Sq, RAF Regt. The boss said we "could speak the language" so we always got tasked with coordinating what we were both doing. At least we always got a cup of tea when we went over there!

 

[MickeyC]

Stacking sucks when people are chucking granades at you or shooting CSWs accross the street. We prefer multiple entry post grenade lob.

It all depends on what type of clearing you are doing. Clearing with civillians in situ or taking out entrenched enemy.

Bodney barracks. I know it well. Damned nissen huts from WWII. Hot in summer and freezing in winter. and the famous UK ration pack tea. Get you legs blown off - Just have a cup of tea and you'll be right! Add a tin of peaches and you're in heaven.

We used to like you guys comming over, always had a good time.