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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Me and a friend went out to the Range tonight and we had a great time, we even shot some when it got dark.

I was able to sight in a new scope on my XCR.

Once sighted in I was able to shoot 15 shots offhanded from 50 yards and get a group about the size of a softball

I am open to any tips or suggestions ( I know I really need to start leaning forward though just need to get in the habit )

Weapons we took
Robinson Arms XCR
Taurus PT 1911SS
Sporterized Mosin Nagant
Bushmaster AR15 20inch Hbar
M44 Mosin Nagant

Here are some of the pictures and videos



































Video of XCR being fired at night




 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Good stuff, night shoots are always fun.

How big is that range?
The range is a local police range they let me join since I dispatch for them, it has a 100 yard rifle range, a cabin on top of the ridgeline, about 100 acres, and hunting privileges all for $30, and there hardly anyone out there because the police have built a new nicer range.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·

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Try reloading left handed, not right. It will be a heck of a lot quicker and not having a mag pouch on your right hip will leave your pistol unobstructed. Same hand reloading and shooting is always slower than string hand shooting and weak hand reloading.

On an XCR, when your bolt locks back, use the right hand index finger to press the magazine release. As the magazine slides down you can cant the weapon slightly to the right. This will open up your magwell for the fresh magazine. At the same time, because you have been counting your rounds or used a tracer to warn you of the impending change, you left hand takes a space magazine and inserts it, firmly, into the open magwell. Don't slap or bang as you may loosen the top round in the magazine and cause a feedway jam. Then using your right index finger you release the bolt catch, while using your left hand to regrip the rifle and continue to shoot. Slapping and banging the magazine to free up a jammed follower work fine when the bolt is closed, not when open.

If the weapon fails to fire you have two choices: 1: drop down and carry out an IA drill, you kneel to make yourself a smaller target. Or, 2: Drop the rifle on it's sling and continue with a pistol until you have time and cover to clear the jam. The transition is usually faster and in CQB can be a life saver.

Range time and competition may be different but when you are shooting in a gunfight, mag changes and transitions are key elements to survival. Putting rounds on target is the most important aspect to wining the exchange. Most people when shot at duck, irrespective or whether it is a pistol or rifle round. Pauses in fire allow them to shoot back.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Try reloading left handed, not right. It will be a heck of a lot quicker and not having a mag pouch on your right hip will leave your pistol unobstructed. Same hand reloading and shooting is always slower than string hand shooting and weak hand reloading.

On an XCR, when your bolt locks back, use the right hand index finger to press the magazine release. As the magazine slides down you can cant the weapon slightly to the right. This will open up your magwell for the fresh magazine. At the same time, because you have been counting your rounds or used a tracer to warn you of the impending change, you left hand takes a space magazine and inserts it, firmly, into the open magwell. Don't slap or bang as you may loosen the top round in the magazine and cause a feedway jam. Then using your right index finger you release the bolt catch, while using your left hand to regrip the rifle and continue to shoot. Slapping and banging the magazine to free up a jammed follower work fine when the bolt is closed, not when open.

If the weapon fails to fire you have two choices: 1: drop down and carry out an IA drill, you kneel to make yourself a smaller target. Or, 2: Drop the rifle on it's sling and continue with a pistol until you have time and cover to clear the jam. The transition is usually faster and in CQB can be a life saver.

Range time and competition may be different but when you are shooting in a gunfight, mag changes and transitions are key elements to survival. Putting rounds on target is the most important aspect to wining the exchange. Most people when shot at duck, irrespective or whether it is a pistol or rifle round. Pauses in fire allow them to shoot back.
Thanks for the tip.

I will have to try that when I get my XCR back from gr8santini.
 

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I totally agree to reload sequence given by MickeyC.

As for when to transition, start at 5 or 10 yards and fire five rounds (works great on a steel target as you get instant feedback). If you get 5 out of 5, move back another 5 yards. Keep going until you cannot quickly and consistently get 4 to 5 rounds on target. This would be the distance I would suggest finding cover and fixing the rifle as going to the pistol won't be effective. With the real world stress of a gun fight the distance will probably be shorter. Most students in my classes find the distance is 20 to 35 yards depending on their skill level.

The other thing I would look at is collapsing the stock to fully closed or one notch out. Since you keep your head back in your shooting position, the extra length is not probably doing you much good. With it closer to your body, you'll have less moment of inertia when moving, and the gun may "feel" lighter as the weight is closer to the shoulder (less leverage against the pivot). I would imagine you will find that you will shoot quicker and your splits will be faster. You will also have more control in a gun grab.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I totally agree to reload sequence given by MickeyC.

As for when to transition, start at 5 or 10 yards and fire five rounds (works great on a steel target as you get instant feedback). If you get 5 out of 5, move back another 5 yards. Keep going until you cannot quickly and consistently get 4 to 5 rounds on target. This would be the distance I would suggest finding cover and fixing the rifle as going to the pistol won't be effective. With the real world stress of a gun fight the distance will probably be shorter. Most students in my classes find the distance is 20 to 35 yards depending on their skill level.

The other thing I would look at is collapsing the stock to fully closed or one notch out. Since you keep your head back in your shooting position, the extra length is not probably doing you much good. With it closer to your body, you'll have less moment of inertia when moving, and the gun may "feel" lighter as the weight is closer to the shoulder (less leverage against the pivot). I would imagine you will find that you will shoot quicker and your splits will be faster. You will also have more control in a gun grab.
Thanks for the tip. The main reason I shot with the stock open is it is more comfortable, but if collapsing it will help with accuracy and control I will have to try it.



I think it should be a law that if you shoot at night, you must kill at least one possum.
I do not think there would have been a chance. We got out there at 1800 and did not leave until 2115 and there was not a stop in the shooting except to load the Mosins and the AR mags once, other than target checks. We put about 500-700 rounds down range between 5 weapons. The animals would have been pretty stupid to come out because they we have had an unpleasant meeting with a 7.62x54R ;D
 

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I think it should be a law that if you shoot at night, you must kill at least one possum.
I do not think there would have been a chance. We got out there at 1800 and did not leave until 2115 and there was not a stop in the shooting except to load the Mosins and the AR mags once, other than target checks. We put about 500-700 rounds down range between 5 weapons. The animals would have been pretty stupid to come out because they we have had an unpleasant meeting with a 7.62x54R ;D
LOL, you'd be surprised what the critters who live near ranges get used to! There's a really nice public range here that's nestled in the middle of a large state park / wildlife area. I've seen deer standing on the berm above the bullet trap while people were shooting. I've also seen them in the woods less than 50 yards from all the shooting!
If Aziator reads this, I'm referring to the range at the Hobbs State Park.

Edit to add...possums are even more stupider than deers, so try and get one at your next night shoot. Free PMAG to the first confirmed (and legal) possum kill with an XCR.
 

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My tips are not set in stone, but have worked for a few students through the years. I went back and looked at your pics and in every one it looks like you are "wrapping your arms around a tree." What I teach, and I wish I could remember where I learned it, is to have your elbows down. For a right handed shooter the right elbow should be pointed towards the right hip, right about the holster placement. I try to get everyone in class to point the left elbow towards the belly button, or center of the body. Usually they will relax a bit and it will be pointed to the left hip. From what I have been trained on and found from teaching, is that with the left elbow pointed to the center of the body, it will force the left hand to grip a little harder and keep recoil tracking in a straight line. On full auto guns my groups don't wander.

As for gripping strenght, the left hand should be doing 60 % of the work and the right hand 40%.

With the above mentioned elbow placement you may find that the closer stock position works well.

If you have access to a shot timer, run the same drill 5 times with the stock at each position, keeping consistent form with feet and elbows. The one that ends up with the fastest first shot and split times, is probably your most efficient position, but may or may not be your most comfortable.

Hope the tips work for you.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I think it should be a law that if you shoot at night, you must kill at least one possum.
I do not think there would have been a chance. We got out there at 1800 and did not leave until 2115 and there was not a stop in the shooting except to load the Mosins and the AR mags once, other than target checks. We put about 500-700 rounds down range between 5 weapons. The animals would have been pretty stupid to come out because they we have had an unpleasant meeting with a 7.62x54R ;D
LOL, you'd be surprised what the critters who live near ranges get used to! There's a really nice public range here that's nestled in the middle of a large state park / wildlife area. I've seen deer standing on the berm above the bullet trap while people were shooting. I've also seen them in the woods less than 50 yards from all the shooting!
If Aziator reads this, I'm referring to the range at the Hobbs State Park.

Edit to add...possums are even more stupider than deers, so try and get one at your next night shoot. Free PMAG to the first confirmed (and legal) possum kill with an XCR.
I will see what I can do, but in all the night I have stayed the night out there I have not seen any, but then again it was with anywhere from 20-75 JROTC Cadets and I had to supervise them so I did not have much time to look around for possums, but there where plenty of signs of bear both doors of the cabin had to be replaced because of the bears, there are also deer licks out but I have not seen to many signs of deer. Plenty of squirrels and birds though. Out at the Public Range on there had been many days where the turkeys were out on the range and they would not move no matter what you did so you just had to shoot around them.



My tips are not set in stone, but have worked for a few students through the years. I went back and looked at your pics and in every one it looks like you are "wrapping your arms around a tree." What I teach, and I wish I could remember where I learned it, is to have your elbows down. For a right handed shooter the right elbow should be pointed towards the right hip, right about the holster placement. I try to get everyone in class to point the left elbow towards the belly button, or center of the body. Usually they will relax a bit and it will be pointed to the left hip. From what I have been trained on and found from teaching, is that with the left elbow pointed to the center of the body, it will force the left hand to grip a little harder and keep recoil tracking in a straight line. On full auto guns my groups don't wander.

As for gripping strenght, the left hand should be doing 60 % of the work and the right hand 40%.

With the above mentioned elbow placement you may find that the closer stock position works well.

If you have access to a shot timer, run the same drill 5 times with the stock at each position, keeping consistent form with feet and elbows. The one that ends up with the fastest first shot and split times, is probably your most efficient position, but may or may not be your most comfortable.

Hope the tips work for you.
Thanks for the tip

It is better to try and see if it helps then to ignore sound advice.
Do you have any videos or pictures of this stance ?
I do not have a shot timer, but I can have a friend use a stop watch.

I would much rather be a little uncomfortable in the beginning and shoot better then to be comfortable and not hit the broad sign of a barn.
 

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I'll see if I can get my wife to snap some pics this weekend.

Unfortunately a stop watch won't give you the level of accuracy needed. Once you really get into testing, changing one variable, at a time, you will be looking at 10ths of a seconds differences so that leaves the stop watch out. Second, a stop watch won't be able to measure split times for you. With a good shooting buddy or coach, a shot timer can be a good training technique. A shot timer is also nice as you can use them by yourself.

Another instructor and I use them every time we want to test a new technique. Sometimes a new idea or technique feels great but when put up against the clock comes out not working so well.

As for trying to find the elbow placement on your own, imagine a laser pointer taped to your forearm with the laser towards the elbow. If you look at your pics, the elbows in your pics are both pointed away from the body, sorta like a "v". Once you get them down and in and get some pics, you'll be able to draw a line through the forearm and the line will intersect at or about the waist.

Besides control, elbows down and in will minimize exposure around cover and keep you from hitting your arms on things when moving in buildings. With elbows out, it is not uncommon to hit door frames, lamps, furniture, rub on walls, etc.
 

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If Aziator reads this, I'm referring to the range at the Hobbs State Park.

Edit to add...possums are even more stupider than deers, so try and get one at your next night shoot. Free PMAG to the first confirmed (and legal) possum kill with an XCR.
I saw a few critter while out there. I should have taken a pic of the armadillo I hit with 6.8, one huge hole.

I will echo what martens said, always test new technique to make nsre it doesn't just feel good, it needs to work good too. Elbows in provides better stability in my opinion.
 
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