Check out http://rense.com/general80/mroe.htm
ILLEGALS COSTING US TAXPAYERS MORE THAN IRAC WAR
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My take is different. But then I'm foreign so feel free to ignore me anyway.
Simple solution, if you are an immigrant and you can show three years of tax returns and no record of taking any social security as well as that you can speak English, you can stay, otherwise piss off.
Basically prove that you are here to work and contribute otherwise get sent back, and no messing around.
Simple solution, if you are an immigrant and you can show three years of tax returns and no record of taking any social security as well as that you can speak English, you can stay, otherwise piss off.
Basically prove that you are here to work and contribute otherwise get sent back, and no messing around.
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that choice is not a popular one but i agree. if you can show you are a contributer to the system then you should be allowed to stay. i could care less about speaking english, how much english do you need to pick onions? it is not like the onion needs to understand them.
pretty soon the baby boomers are gonna start sitting at home and collect SS. Someone has to work.
also USA imports more oil from Mexico than it does Saudi Arabia, would you rather have the Mexico sell the oil to China at a premium?
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It has got so bad in Australia that immigrants can go test for their driver's license and take an interperter with them to translate because they can't speak a word of English.
It would be discriminatory to do otherwise!
Yer right! :duh:
It would be discriminatory to do otherwise!
Yer right! :duh:
Listen to us.
We all know what's right and what's wrong. The politicians have agenda bigger then
the citizens of our country, they are thinking about the "big picture", Globalization.
We are being sold out for the "Big picture".
We could have our country weened off of foreign oil in 5 years, but the DC won't have it!
The border patrol could stop the tsunami from the south but DC won't have it.
Everything that is broken could be fixed but DC won't fix it.
I feel betrayed more then ever.
I teach my granddaughter about our great past and prey for her future.
We all know what's right and what's wrong. The politicians have agenda bigger then
the citizens of our country, they are thinking about the "big picture", Globalization.
We are being sold out for the "Big picture".
We could have our country weened off of foreign oil in 5 years, but the DC won't have it!
The border patrol could stop the tsunami from the south but DC won't have it.
Everything that is broken could be fixed but DC won't fix it.
I feel betrayed more then ever.
I teach my granddaughter about our great past and prey for her future.
Joined
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6,537 Posts
England is having an immigration problem. Many who have been in the country for years are not speaking English because they don;t have to. Councils are translating everything into multiple languages, at last count alomst 120 of them.
When I got sick of it and moved to Spain, I learnt to speak spanish. I was in their country and I paid my taxes and learnt the language. That's called respect.
As for globalization, take a look at Roman history for the results of globalization... In reality globalization is about quick profits and very little to do with future planning.
When I got sick of it and moved to Spain, I learnt to speak spanish. I was in their country and I paid my taxes and learnt the language. That's called respect.
As for globalization, take a look at Roman history for the results of globalization... In reality globalization is about quick profits and very little to do with future planning.
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165 Posts
Foreign? What does that mean?
So are you saying that those who came in illegally and stole someones identity but not old enough to take Social Security for 3 years and speak English> make you OK?
Work and contribute is not even close to the issue.
What about > Obey the law?
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No, because they can pay taxes with a TAX ID number which allows then to pay taxes and nothing else.
But regrading the obey the law bit: Yes but...Kick them all out and watch the economy stumble as low income work doesn't get done, prices go up as pay scales go up to pay for Americans to do the labour that immigrants do. How much do you want to pay for fresh food? How would you feel if your grocery bill doubles? How would a low income family feel if their food costs more.
Even Spain, which hates the Morocans even more than you guys hate the Mexicans understands that they contribute a significant amount to the economy by doing the field work, cleaning and other jobs that Spaniards won't do. So much so that Spain offered immigration services to Venezuelans, Colombians and Peruvians to try and ensure that workers were still available when they did their last cull of Moroccans. They have an interesting rule there as well. If you can stay in the country for seven years without being kicked out, then you can legally stay. Interesting solution! Same situation for taxes and many Morocans in Spain illegally pay taxes and social security contributions.....who would have thought that!
or
Make legal immigration easier....it used to be...
The immigration issue is too complex to have a simple solution like build a wall, or let them all stay. Some middle ground needs to be found otherwise costs will go up both for the jobs that low income workers do and costs for securing the border. It's gone on for too long and has too much potential impact for simple solutions.
But regrading the obey the law bit: Yes but...Kick them all out and watch the economy stumble as low income work doesn't get done, prices go up as pay scales go up to pay for Americans to do the labour that immigrants do. How much do you want to pay for fresh food? How would you feel if your grocery bill doubles? How would a low income family feel if their food costs more.
Even Spain, which hates the Morocans even more than you guys hate the Mexicans understands that they contribute a significant amount to the economy by doing the field work, cleaning and other jobs that Spaniards won't do. So much so that Spain offered immigration services to Venezuelans, Colombians and Peruvians to try and ensure that workers were still available when they did their last cull of Moroccans. They have an interesting rule there as well. If you can stay in the country for seven years without being kicked out, then you can legally stay. Interesting solution! Same situation for taxes and many Morocans in Spain illegally pay taxes and social security contributions.....who would have thought that!
or
Make legal immigration easier....it used to be...
The immigration issue is too complex to have a simple solution like build a wall, or let them all stay. Some middle ground needs to be found otherwise costs will go up both for the jobs that low income workers do and costs for securing the border. It's gone on for too long and has too much potential impact for simple solutions.
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165 Posts
You can't get a tax ID unless you obtain one illegally or steal someones ID.
I won't even get into the lame rationale about Work that law-abiding Americans (note these are legal people) won't do.
We always want to make decisions about "feelings" not what is right or wrong....> this is a major reason of what is wrong today.
Who said kick em all out ~ I didn't.
We need to drive them out by making it impossible for them to stay here if they don't do the right thing and obey our laws.
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You can get a tax ID without breaking the law. You just ask the IRS for one. They even state that they give them to illegals.
The Law is also not really about right or wrong, it is based on feelings. Jurisprudence is all about how laws are interpreted, usually based on what a jury decided based on their feelings regarding the events around each case. How many times has a jury found someone not guilty of a crime becasue they don't feel the act was wrong in the given circumstances?
If you only see this, and are happily knocking my approach, what is yours?
The Law is also not really about right or wrong, it is based on feelings. Jurisprudence is all about how laws are interpreted, usually based on what a jury decided based on their feelings regarding the events around each case. How many times has a jury found someone not guilty of a crime becasue they don't feel the act was wrong in the given circumstances?
If you only see this, and are happily knocking my approach, what is yours?
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I think all Gov't and official documents should be done in English.
But in the private sector, you should be able to conduct business and speak any language you want! I myself visit Taco Bells and McDonalds where their are good ole Americans working there. Not because I am hater, it's must I want them to get my order right. It is your choice where you want to put your money.
If you do not speak English in this country you ain't $h!t. That there is all the motivation you need. You want to get ahead you speak English.
But in the private sector, you should be able to conduct business and speak any language you want! I myself visit Taco Bells and McDonalds where their are good ole Americans working there. Not because I am hater, it's must I want them to get my order right. It is your choice where you want to put your money.
If you do not speak English in this country you ain't $h!t. That there is all the motivation you need. You want to get ahead you speak English.
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165 Posts
So you are telling me the US Gov't gives Soc Sec #'s to illegals... I don't think so, how moronic is that! The Gov't doesn't give the ID's the illegals STEAL Identities and Soc Sec #'s.
THE LAW IS NOT ABOUT RIGHT OR WRONG, IT IS BASED ON FEELINGS! ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND!
(PS ... Jury(s) are supposed to make decisions on EVIDENCE and FACTS in the case ~ NOT "Feelings".)
That is EXACTLY what the Liberal Idiots in this great Country are trying to do ~ They are trying to change the Law to fit their agenda rather than following the law until it it changed through proper and documented legislative procedures. Liberal Judges CHANGE laws and Conservative Judges FOLLOW the law. It cannot be any simpler. It is why and how the Liberal agenda is trying to control you, me and this country. They want our money to REDISTRIBUTE to those who can keep them in power ~ for that they want to CONTROL your life and your destiny and do not want YOU to be responsible for your own life. They want you beholdin'.
Wake UP and quit listening to that Morris Albert CD.
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448 Posts
I have to get ready for work right now, BUT I will give ya'll the true low down about illegal aliens paying taxes, how they file (TIN W7) under what law is it allowed, the how IRS, SSA, and DHS DON'T cooperate.
In the mean time google al about Earned Income Tax Credit.
This is about tax filings by illegal aliens. I'll even high light how welfare benefits are applied for, darn near forced upon illegal aliens to tell the truth. And I'll even add why do it. Also my specialty, eployers who hire them. How and why.
In the mean time google al about Earned Income Tax Credit.
This is about tax filings by illegal aliens. I'll even high light how welfare benefits are applied for, darn near forced upon illegal aliens to tell the truth. And I'll even add why do it. Also my specialty, eployers who hire them. How and why.
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Ignorance is not an excuse to make an ass of yourself: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18077009/
Also, all judges, conservative and liberal do not 'follow' the law as you are implying, they can only interpret it (use their best judgement under the circumstances) but more often they don't even do that and instead use previous case history. This has been the way courts have worked for hundreds of years even before the American court system. There has always been a large gap between laws passed by legislators and what goes on in the courts and on the streets and this gap will always exist as long as we have this type of court system.
Jurors do make their decisions based on the information they have been provided (hopefully factual) but this has nothing to do with the law. A jury has the prerogative to give a not guilty verdict even if it is completely opposite of what the law says. The whole point of Jurors is to be the checks and balances on our legislative body. We as citizens do not get to vote on laws and have barely any influence on what our legislators do in those big expensive buildings (short of pestering them with angry letters which they have their assistants read and respond to).
If a really stupid laws is passed, someone breaks this law and appears in court in front of the jury. The jury can reach a not guilty verdict because they believe the law is wrong, this creates case history for future incidents. In this way the stupid law has been significantly crippled and future judges are likely to rule based on this previous case.
This is why for example everyone is so scared to take 2nd amendment issues to court for fear that if a bad ruling is made it would establish case history and then any future attempts to restore our 2nd amendment rights would be drastically more difficult.
MickeyC knows what he's talking about, taking your frustration with our government out on him is pointless.
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smschultz, Illegals can get Tax ID numbers not SSNs, specifically so they can pay taxes.
As for the law, why do you think lawyers quote different cases when either defending or prosecuting. It's because they are trying to match the verdict to the circumstances. Black and white is meaningless. The problem is that it is very hard to be precise when drafting intend in the English language. Jurisprudence is what guides the courts, all the way up to the supreme court. What did the jury do in this situation, these circumstances...juries are the will of the people as they are made up of the people. That's who dispenses justice, 12 or your fellow people. Judges just sentence, unless it goes to a Supreme Court who then weigh jurisprudence and law to decide if a prior verdict stands or not. Rarely does a Supreme Court say the sentace or decision was not harsh enough.
Perhaps you've never heard of legal precedent? This is where a jury sets a decision which affects future interpretation of a law going forward. Castle doctrine has been evolved and produced a nice law that in some states allows you to defend yourself wherever you are legally. Why...because judgements were supporting that right under old laws and to cut down of court cases and frivolous cases they changed the law. Test cases are those which are the first to be heard under new laws, and who wants to be involved as a defendant in one of those....because you have no idea, no guide, no precedence for how it will go.
Back to immigration, what's your solution, or do you simply like to bitch about topics you don't understand.
and who the hell is Morris Albert anyway?
Lex, thanks... I appreciate the support.
As for the law, why do you think lawyers quote different cases when either defending or prosecuting. It's because they are trying to match the verdict to the circumstances. Black and white is meaningless. The problem is that it is very hard to be precise when drafting intend in the English language. Jurisprudence is what guides the courts, all the way up to the supreme court. What did the jury do in this situation, these circumstances...juries are the will of the people as they are made up of the people. That's who dispenses justice, 12 or your fellow people. Judges just sentence, unless it goes to a Supreme Court who then weigh jurisprudence and law to decide if a prior verdict stands or not. Rarely does a Supreme Court say the sentace or decision was not harsh enough.
Perhaps you've never heard of legal precedent? This is where a jury sets a decision which affects future interpretation of a law going forward. Castle doctrine has been evolved and produced a nice law that in some states allows you to defend yourself wherever you are legally. Why...because judgements were supporting that right under old laws and to cut down of court cases and frivolous cases they changed the law. Test cases are those which are the first to be heard under new laws, and who wants to be involved as a defendant in one of those....because you have no idea, no guide, no precedence for how it will go.
Back to immigration, what's your solution, or do you simply like to bitch about topics you don't understand.
and who the hell is Morris Albert anyway?
Lex, thanks... I appreciate the support.
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448 Posts
Illegals and taxes.
I think someone already mentioned it, but it is tru, anyone who cannot or is not authorized to obtain a SSN can get a Tax Identification Number by filing a W7 with the IRS. These are the 9 digit numbers that look like a social security number but they start with 8 or 9. There are many legitimate reason to get a TIN such as any non resident alien (no green card) that owns a business in the US, property, whatever and that the have to file taxes. It is quite common. The difference is when someone is EARNING WAGES thus working in the US is where a non US citizen would then require some permit through DHS/USCIS, formerly known as INS, another agency.
Now where is where the issue lies within. Let's say Juan Martinez from Oaxaca, Mexico illegally enters the US. He goes to Santa Ana. CA. There he hooks up with his cousin who works doing land scaping (illegal aliens have been abandoning field work for more urban areas). His cousin hooks him up with a guy that makes fake docs. Practically every illegal alien apartment complex or trailer park will have one guy that does it. That guy will tell Juan go to WalMart (pronounced 'Gualma') and get a couple of passport photos, or he'll do it for about $20 more. For about $80 bucks that guy will make a crappy fake I-551 (Resident Alien Card) and crappy SS card. Now most of these fake doc producers do some homework and use something close to a legit SS card. They already know that TINS start with 8 and 9 and they know how SS numbers are assigned by state so he'll punch out a card that will belong to CA, Orange county area. Sometimes they have a bank of SS numbers that they use that typically come back to hispanic names that may even match the A# on the fake 551 card. They charge a bit more for those. But it is not common that that SS numbers may belong to a 8 year old kid living in Utah, or even a County prosecutor in Cheyenne WY. But Juan doesn't know or care, neither does fake doc maker.
And for that matter apparently SS Administration doesn't care either. SS is deducted from your wages like it or not. However our SS number is how we are tracked by the IRS, Credit Bureau's, just about everything.
continued......
I think someone already mentioned it, but it is tru, anyone who cannot or is not authorized to obtain a SSN can get a Tax Identification Number by filing a W7 with the IRS. These are the 9 digit numbers that look like a social security number but they start with 8 or 9. There are many legitimate reason to get a TIN such as any non resident alien (no green card) that owns a business in the US, property, whatever and that the have to file taxes. It is quite common. The difference is when someone is EARNING WAGES thus working in the US is where a non US citizen would then require some permit through DHS/USCIS, formerly known as INS, another agency.
Now where is where the issue lies within. Let's say Juan Martinez from Oaxaca, Mexico illegally enters the US. He goes to Santa Ana. CA. There he hooks up with his cousin who works doing land scaping (illegal aliens have been abandoning field work for more urban areas). His cousin hooks him up with a guy that makes fake docs. Practically every illegal alien apartment complex or trailer park will have one guy that does it. That guy will tell Juan go to WalMart (pronounced 'Gualma') and get a couple of passport photos, or he'll do it for about $20 more. For about $80 bucks that guy will make a crappy fake I-551 (Resident Alien Card) and crappy SS card. Now most of these fake doc producers do some homework and use something close to a legit SS card. They already know that TINS start with 8 and 9 and they know how SS numbers are assigned by state so he'll punch out a card that will belong to CA, Orange county area. Sometimes they have a bank of SS numbers that they use that typically come back to hispanic names that may even match the A# on the fake 551 card. They charge a bit more for those. But it is not common that that SS numbers may belong to a 8 year old kid living in Utah, or even a County prosecutor in Cheyenne WY. But Juan doesn't know or care, neither does fake doc maker.
And for that matter apparently SS Administration doesn't care either. SS is deducted from your wages like it or not. However our SS number is how we are tracked by the IRS, Credit Bureau's, just about everything.
continued......
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Now Juan goes with his cousin who will "hook him up" with a land scaping job. The cousin introduces him to Mike who runs the outfit, maybe owns it. The company has about 30 employees and they have city and county park contracts. Juan hands the fake docs to Mike and Mike picks them up. Now Mike is 34 years old, US born and raised, looks at the fake docs, and I'm sure knows that they are fake docs, but there is no law requiring him to know or verify if these are fake docs. Mike makes copies and gives Juan an application, a w-4, and an I-9 to fill out. The application is for the company, the w-4 for what Juan will claim for IRS deductions, and the I-9 is for employment verification.
I-9 Form, this came out as a compromise of the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 (IRCA 86). This is where President Ronal Reagan (a republican), Congress, and the House passed into law and granted amnesty to what was supposed to be just 2 million illegal aliens (later turned out to be about 9 million as the years went on), stopped Border Patrol and INS Agents from doing random and unannounced raids, now requiring either consent or a warrant, and in exchange employers must fill out this form and file it in the employees file, supposedly verifying legal status to work in the US. And tough employment sanctions were to be enforced but hardly any were done up until recently. So a little tid bit about IRCA 86 is that they had to have been in the US already by 1986, BUTTTTT BP Agents would round up groups of aliens in the middle of the night, finding them under a bush, covered in mud and sweat and within a few hundred yards north of the US Mexico border in the middle of nowhere and they would state, "Yeah I'm illegal, but I've been here since 1986. I was just visiting in the area". And there was nothing that they could do about it thanks to the Mexican Consulate, immigrant rights groups, 9th circuit courts, ACLU, etc. A pilot program was created in 1986 where the employer could call in and verify the Alien Registration number. That too was never done.
Back to Juan. So Juan gets all these things to fill out. His cousin help him fill it out. Then it comes to the W4 and his cousing says, "Oye guey. The gabachos want to take taxes from your pay. All you need to do is mark that you are married and put '99' in this box. That way they don take notin, orale". So Juan does as he is told and fills out the W4 and I-9 using the fake doc numbers. About two weeks later, Juan gets his first check for 607.50 gross pay, social security deductions for 11.28, and medicare at 5.24. Federal and state, zero.
continued.....
I-9 Form, this came out as a compromise of the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 (IRCA 86). This is where President Ronal Reagan (a republican), Congress, and the House passed into law and granted amnesty to what was supposed to be just 2 million illegal aliens (later turned out to be about 9 million as the years went on), stopped Border Patrol and INS Agents from doing random and unannounced raids, now requiring either consent or a warrant, and in exchange employers must fill out this form and file it in the employees file, supposedly verifying legal status to work in the US. And tough employment sanctions were to be enforced but hardly any were done up until recently. So a little tid bit about IRCA 86 is that they had to have been in the US already by 1986, BUTTTTT BP Agents would round up groups of aliens in the middle of the night, finding them under a bush, covered in mud and sweat and within a few hundred yards north of the US Mexico border in the middle of nowhere and they would state, "Yeah I'm illegal, but I've been here since 1986. I was just visiting in the area". And there was nothing that they could do about it thanks to the Mexican Consulate, immigrant rights groups, 9th circuit courts, ACLU, etc. A pilot program was created in 1986 where the employer could call in and verify the Alien Registration number. That too was never done.
Back to Juan. So Juan gets all these things to fill out. His cousin help him fill it out. Then it comes to the W4 and his cousing says, "Oye guey. The gabachos want to take taxes from your pay. All you need to do is mark that you are married and put '99' in this box. That way they don take notin, orale". So Juan does as he is told and fills out the W4 and I-9 using the fake doc numbers. About two weeks later, Juan gets his first check for 607.50 gross pay, social security deductions for 11.28, and medicare at 5.24. Federal and state, zero.
continued.....
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