[FlatDarkEarth]

Jeff Cooper's "Project"

I've recently been reading through Jeff Cooper's commentaries and have come across a challenge he referred to as "The Project." Simply put, he wanted to to know if anyone out there could put 20 rounds in 20 inches in 20 seconds at 1000 yards.

So, I know that none of us (potential) consumers actually has the rifle in hand yet. But what do you all expect? Do you suppose that an XCR in 6.5 might be up to the task (given that it's shooter was as well)?

How about the Robinson staff? How close do you think the XCR comes to being the right tool for "The Project"?

 

[ny32182]

Re: Jeff Cooper's "Project"

Certainly not an expert, but I'd think you'd want some sort of semiauto chambered in .338lm or .408, or something like that to even have a chance.

 

[FlatDarkEarth]

Re: Jeff Cooper's "Project"

The only trouble there is that you'd have all that recoil to overcome in order to get back on target in under a second, and you'd have to repeat that feat 19 times in a row.

I found out today that it's been done with a highly customized 5.56, where light recoil is your friend between shots. .308 Was assumed by many to be the go to round for the challenge. It seems to me like the high ballistic coefficient and lighter recoil would make 6.5 an even better choice.

 

[MickeyC]

Re: Jeff Cooper's "Project"

XCR, no chance. Not that type of rifle, thought with a decent trigger and an 18" 6.5 barrel it would be fun to try.

 

[gunner69]

Re: Jeff Cooper's "Project"

A "special order" XCR in 6.5, with a 24" (yes I said 24) barrel, different stock, and a truly match grade trigger might have a VERY SLIM chance..........on a VERY CALM DAY. :2cents:

 

[ny32182]

Re: Jeff Cooper's "Project"

Thats what I'm thinking about; the wind. I would have thought that any light air movement at all on a 1000 yard range would make it impossible with a 5.56, and that you'd want a round that is both very heavy and very accurate, and you'd just have to overcome the recoil with a big compensator or through some other means.

I'm talking out of my ass though... got no experience in this arena. Just speculating.

 

[MickeyC]

Re: Jeff Cooper's "Project"

The all time aimed fire record with a bolt action rifle was by Sgt. Snoxall of the British army, 38 hits on a 12" bull at 300 yards in 1 minute.

If you add semi auto and not having to reload the rifle four times he could easily make that at 1 round per second. Add range and target size and 'The Project" fails to be come a likely accomplishment without some very specialized equipment and wind consistency.

Gunner, a 18" 6.5 barrel can yeild the sub 2 moa consistency and velocity but you're right a 24 might add a little aid. Given the recoil and range you wouldn;t be able to resight the target and fire again in 1 second. Try it at the range next time you shoot, go to max distance with a 308 and have a go, say at 300 yards with a 6" bull. Two shots in 2 seconds. Then try viewing the target at 1000yds.

I do think it's possible, with a GAU-8 minigun!

 

[Klatuu]

Re: Jeff Cooper's "Project"

Dave Lauck of D&L Sports, Inc. did this in 2006 with a custom rifle he produced, and with Black Hills ammo.

Lauck is also a competitive shooter, with such accomplishments as: 1990 Tactical Rifle Event winner at the S.O.F. World Championship Tactical Match; top 10% finisher in the 1990 S.O.F. 3-gun World Championship Match; Team Captain at the 1991 S.O.F. World Championship Match; 1st Place in the NRA 600 yard Countersniper Match in 1988; 1st Place in the 1987 S.A.A. Countersniper Shoot-off; 1986 South Dakota Highway Patrol Two-Gun Combat Match Police Champion, and Champion of the 1985 Northwest Regionals. Additionally, he was the Wyoming Tactical Division winner in 1995. In 1996 and 1997 he was the recipient of Outstanding Shooter awards. In 2006 Dave Lauck was the first to surpass Col. Jeff Cooper's 20-20-20 challenge; 20 shots, in less than 20 seconds, in less than a 20 inch target at 1000 yards. Lauck used a personally customized D&L precision rifle with Black Hills match grade ammunition for the event.

http://www.dlsports.com/npage9.html

 

[dont_tread_on_me]

Re: Jeff Cooper's "Project"

I'm no long range expert,but here is my opinion.You better have your shit together to even get close to achieving this.Your rifle has to be capable of less than 2 moa for it to be possible,and while that doesn't sound that bad,it's just one factor.Other than time,wind is probably the biggest enemy,but reacquiring the target the same way fast enough is about equal in that regard.Mirage and heat waves distorting your perception can play into it as well,depending on temperature of course.At that range so many factors come into play.
I'm sure I don't need to say this,but a 20" target at 1000 yards isn't very big.Obviously Dave Lauck is very good at what he does,not to mention he's using very good equipment.I think however if anyone is thinking of attempting to pull this off,better plan on investing a large sum of money and time training into it,because it's not something that will happen on a whim.
If your really interested in trying "the project" give it a whirl at 500 yards 10" 10 hits 10 seconds,just to see if your even anywhere close.Post your results,I'm curious how many will attempt this.



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[MickeyC]

Re: Jeff Cooper's "Project"

Some guy will probably try this out with an embedded, tripod mounted rifle just to say he has done it. More importantly however is the other question, "what's the point?"

 

[dont_tread_on_me]

Re: Jeff Cooper's "Project"

"what's the point?"

I was thinking the same thing,but I figured someone else would say it first. ;D



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[Bravo]

Re: Jeff Cooper's "Project"

The point is, it's VERY difficult.

I've pulled this off at 600, with my M25. There's a WORLD of difference between hits at 600 and 1000 though.

What's the challenge? Simple: can you do it?
Ditto with climbing Everest. The challenge was because it was there to be done.

 

[TerraShrewsbury]

Re: Jeff Cooper's "Project"

Good gravy. I couldn't pull that off on my best day.

 

[sinjin]

Re: Jeff Cooper's "Project"

... I'm sure I don't need to say this,but a 20" target at 1000 yards isn't very big ....

Approx. 1.9 minutes, by my calculation.

 

[Bravo]

Re: Jeff Cooper's "Project"

True, but if you shoot 1.9 MOA at 600, there's no way you'll hit more than 3/4 of those rounds at 1000. I'd put the estimate more at 1/2 of them.

My rifle is well under 1/2 MOA at 300, but at 900, I'm doing well to keep 1 MOA.

And the more rounds you send down range at 1K, the harder it is to get a string of 20 to connect.

 

[MickeyC]

Re: Jeff Cooper's "Project"

A 1MOA rifle is 1MOA at all ranges. Whether the ammunition or shooter are capable at longer range is not the fault of the rifle. The impact spread at longer ranges is due to ammunition consistency, shooter ability and environmental differences shot to shot.

At 1000 yards, hitting the target once is not hard, hitting it 20 times is not hard, but putting a string of 20 rounds, in 20 seconds would be very, very hard without some form of technical advantage such as a hard mounted tripod with recoil buffers etc

 

[Bravo]

Re: Jeff Cooper's "Project"

Mickey, my point was that if you can put 20 rounds in 1" at 300, that doesn't mean one can mathematically extrapolate to be a 3 1/3" shooter at 1000 yards.

Obviously the ammo is capable of doing 1/3 MOA, but environmental conditions are difficult to catch.

I'm pretty good at determining a 10 MPH wind. I'm not so good at differentiating a 7.4 MPH wind from a 8.4 MPH wind. At 1K, 1 MPH wind carries a 308 bullet a pretty fair distance......

Getting 20 rounds downrange - in a group - without a slight wind change (or gust) is difficult.

 

[MickeyC]

Re: Jeff Cooper's "Project"

That's true enough. The problem with the 1000 yard project is environmental conditions. unless done in a valley/plain with no wind at all for the duration it is unlikely to be possible.

 

[tinman]

Re: Jeff Cooper's "Project"

i would guess that the AK action of the XCR would lend itself to too much vibration to allow a continuous accuracy needed at that kind of range at that rate of fire. a longer barrel would be a definite plus for the grendel round. we won't know for sure until we actually get the little bugger in our hands.(hint hint) ;D

 

[dont_tread_on_me]

Re: Jeff Cooper's "Project"

Bravo,I know it's difficult.The reason I asked "whats the point" is I wanted to know what does it prove? It would be difficult enough under the most controlled circumstances,with a highly accurate precision rig,nestled down into a rock solid rest with a low recoiling cartridge.In the field this would have no practical purpose other than training,as the application of it wouldn't apply to any combat situation I can think of.It's never a bad idea to try to increase your speed and distance capability,but other than being able to brag that you could do this,I don't see the practical meaning of it.That doesn't mean that it has to,hell I do stuff for fun every now and then. ;D



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