What are the expected advantages of an XCR-M over the POF P-308? Other than a folding stock I can't see how the XCR can improve on the ergonomics, reliability, or quality of the P308. But all these folks must be drooling over the prospect of an XCR-M for a reason, so please fill me in!
P308 vs XCR-M?
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·nobody even knows what features or spec's the -M will have. It's vaporware at this point. Any comparison is speculation at best. :-\
next week we can compare the phased plasma rifle in the 40w range with the ACR. ;D
next week we can compare the phased plasma rifle in the 40w range with the ACR. ;D
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6,835 Posts
Yep, Monolithic rail, better ergonomics, side charging bolt handle, stronger bolt, the list goes on and on.
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85 Posts
I'm with bravo and aziator. I hope it's before next summer, and think it will be, but I'll settle for that. I'll take that bet, too.
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I'll wait until I see anti-gun legislation launch and then buy whichever I can get, unless an immediate opportunity arises.
The POF has a good rep and people have used it while the XCR-M is a long overdue promise. hopefully there will be a few more choices out there before it comes time to dip the bucket. I'd rather have an M with a decent trigger, but it has been delayed for a long time and there are still no pictures of it in the metal.
The POF has a good rep and people have used it while the XCR-M is a long overdue promise. hopefully there will be a few more choices out there before it comes time to dip the bucket. I'd rather have an M with a decent trigger, but it has been delayed for a long time and there are still no pictures of it in the metal.
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194 Posts
I have tried my best to track down a POF in .308. The only cat I could find was down in Sarasota, FL. He is addding all kinds of accessories and then selling them for almost $6,000. I asked if he would strip it down and just sale me the rifle. He then went on to say that someone had just propositioned him with the same thing, offering to buy for $4,500. This guy told him "no". After hearing that, I quickly ended the conversation an hung-up the phone. That's just crazy money and way out of my league.
Maybe someone knows something I don't, but it seems normal for RA to have stuff sort of "on the verge of shipping" for a few months before it actually comes out. I don't see any "on the verge of shipping" statements about the -M, so therefore I figure it is going to be *at least* mid summer; probably significantly longer... is there any public information that would lead us to believe otherwise?
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8,010 Posts
Disclaimer: I want a LWRC 308 and a XCR-M, so don't think this an AR-piston hate post.
I like the big AK like bolts of the XCR, seems impossible to break. The POF bolts are the same AR bolts that are prone to breakage at the cam pin hole and little lugs that are known to get sheared off with heavy usage.
I have PDF document from Crane (dated 2006) weapons report I got off the web detailing the shortcomings of the AR. Basically it said M4 bolts that seen hard usage (mostly in full auto) should be canned in the bin at the 3,000 round point. M4 bolts that shot mostly in semi-auto, should be canned at the 10,000 round point. Remember these are milspec Colt bolts the Crane report is referring to and not civi Bushmaster bolts. I hear Internet Rangers tell me they have 20,000 rounds through one Colt M4 bolt, I am not hear to argue with them, I am only stating what the Crane Reports say.
Those of you want to see this Crane PDF, PM me your email and I'll send it to you.
Basically the issue with a DI system is heat and high pressure, take these away and the AR system is cured! I hear from the internet, LWRC, HK, and POF that these Colt AR/M4 bolts will last a lot longer in a Piston AR (such as LWRC or POF), because the system just runs a lot cooler and most of the high pressure gas escapes off before it reaches the bolt. Though this makes totol sense to me, you still have to ask....
- Was it not the high pressure gas is what enables DI's AR's to reliably cycle, even if full auto? I am sure Stoner was no dummy, and if he really believed the AR system needed a piston, he would have put one in.
- If the piston of the these piston-AR's is taking the brunt of the force, would that not mean these little pistons are now prone to failure because of these hot and high pressure gas? Are we not taking a reliable and simple system of a DI AR only to make it more complicated? Have you seen these pistons? They are little (and remember they have to be in order to use them with the existing AR system). The XCR piston is nice and beefy, enough where you can wack someone over the head with one, and put it back in your XCR and you know your gun will still reliably work.
I also still doubt these same M4 bolts will last that much longer in a piston AR system, it is still the same bolt with little iddy biddy lugs. I betcha if I accidently dropped an AR bolt at just the right angle enough times on cement, these lugs will eventually break off, so no hot gas and high pressure needed! Look at the lugs of an AK an XCR and you can see they are 100 times more beefier and there is no way they will break off by dropping them on the cement.
Another Disclaimer: This report was given by a gun ethusiast who enjoys this hobby of guns, but has no gun back ground whatsoever (other than humping one while in the Army). So flame away! I look forward to your flames. ;D
I like the big AK like bolts of the XCR, seems impossible to break. The POF bolts are the same AR bolts that are prone to breakage at the cam pin hole and little lugs that are known to get sheared off with heavy usage.
I have PDF document from Crane (dated 2006) weapons report I got off the web detailing the shortcomings of the AR. Basically it said M4 bolts that seen hard usage (mostly in full auto) should be canned in the bin at the 3,000 round point. M4 bolts that shot mostly in semi-auto, should be canned at the 10,000 round point. Remember these are milspec Colt bolts the Crane report is referring to and not civi Bushmaster bolts. I hear Internet Rangers tell me they have 20,000 rounds through one Colt M4 bolt, I am not hear to argue with them, I am only stating what the Crane Reports say.
Those of you want to see this Crane PDF, PM me your email and I'll send it to you.
Basically the issue with a DI system is heat and high pressure, take these away and the AR system is cured! I hear from the internet, LWRC, HK, and POF that these Colt AR/M4 bolts will last a lot longer in a Piston AR (such as LWRC or POF), because the system just runs a lot cooler and most of the high pressure gas escapes off before it reaches the bolt. Though this makes totol sense to me, you still have to ask....
- Was it not the high pressure gas is what enables DI's AR's to reliably cycle, even if full auto? I am sure Stoner was no dummy, and if he really believed the AR system needed a piston, he would have put one in.
- If the piston of the these piston-AR's is taking the brunt of the force, would that not mean these little pistons are now prone to failure because of these hot and high pressure gas? Are we not taking a reliable and simple system of a DI AR only to make it more complicated? Have you seen these pistons? They are little (and remember they have to be in order to use them with the existing AR system). The XCR piston is nice and beefy, enough where you can wack someone over the head with one, and put it back in your XCR and you know your gun will still reliably work.
I also still doubt these same M4 bolts will last that much longer in a piston AR system, it is still the same bolt with little iddy biddy lugs. I betcha if I accidently dropped an AR bolt at just the right angle enough times on cement, these lugs will eventually break off, so no hot gas and high pressure needed! Look at the lugs of an AK an XCR and you can see they are 100 times more beefier and there is no way they will break off by dropping them on the cement.
Another Disclaimer: This report was given by a gun ethusiast who enjoys this hobby of guns, but has no gun back ground whatsoever (other than humping one while in the Army). So flame away! I look forward to your flames. ;D
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6,532 Posts
Cartmann,
You are bang on. The heat generated screws up the heat treatment of the metal parts and this added to the high and rapidly changing forces generated due to automatic fire. That is a known issue and the reason for parts replacement on regular schedules.
Re: the bolts, L85A1 bolts are pretty much the same but they last much longer. AS for AR bolts, failure can appear at a range of different round counts, so an arbitrary value is used as the "time to change". When they refer to the AR as being high maintenance they don't just mean cleaning. Wear on a piston is not such a big deal as their operation is one way and they can be hardened and treated to deal with this. An issue does exist with Piston systems in ARs, and that is upper receiver wear due to the torque forces of the op-rod on the bolt carrier. Each vendor has their own "solution" to this.
Regarding the XCR-M, some of us have been waiting over two years for it. My only concern with a release early next year is that no one has seen it in the metal, even in prototype form. Hopefully it will be ready along with the new trigger but given the chances of a ban I will probably drop an order to POF or LWRC to make sure that I have something prior to a ban comming into effect.
You are bang on. The heat generated screws up the heat treatment of the metal parts and this added to the high and rapidly changing forces generated due to automatic fire. That is a known issue and the reason for parts replacement on regular schedules.
Re: the bolts, L85A1 bolts are pretty much the same but they last much longer. AS for AR bolts, failure can appear at a range of different round counts, so an arbitrary value is used as the "time to change". When they refer to the AR as being high maintenance they don't just mean cleaning. Wear on a piston is not such a big deal as their operation is one way and they can be hardened and treated to deal with this. An issue does exist with Piston systems in ARs, and that is upper receiver wear due to the torque forces of the op-rod on the bolt carrier. Each vendor has their own "solution" to this.
Regarding the XCR-M, some of us have been waiting over two years for it. My only concern with a release early next year is that no one has seen it in the metal, even in prototype form. Hopefully it will be ready along with the new trigger but given the chances of a ban I will probably drop an order to POF or LWRC to make sure that I have something prior to a ban comming into effect.
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2,839 Posts
The POF piston uses an unsupported, unregulated, long and skinny oprod. If you rock the POF upper backwards and forwards you will actually hear the piston rod moving backwards and forwards. I am not especially enamored with this type of piston. You will notice this cheap and rudimentry piston design is the most commonly replicated among the budget piston conversion makers, and LMT. However you should also notice the track record of this piston type is also not very good
Also, I think the POF rail is dreadful.
In the absence of the XCR-M, SCAR-H or LWRC SABR, I will opt for M1A Scout if there is a real danger of a ban coming. In addition, I am not impulsive. I want what I want and see no reason to settle. I've got space in the safe, but I'm not going to fill it with just anything.
Also, I think the POF rail is dreadful.
In the absence of the XCR-M, SCAR-H or LWRC SABR, I will opt for M1A Scout if there is a real danger of a ban coming. In addition, I am not impulsive. I want what I want and see no reason to settle. I've got space in the safe, but I'm not going to fill it with just anything.
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568 Posts
I disagree with heat being the root cause of M4 Carbine bolt failure.
Think about it.
M4 Carbine, shorter barrel,shorter gas system,larger gas port, higher residual chamber pressues. The bolt is under greater load at the time of unlocking than a mid length or rifle length AR15 system. Stands to reason it takes more force to unlock a bolt under a higher load.
when is the last time anyone heard of a M16 bolt breaking?
Think about it.
M4 Carbine, shorter barrel,shorter gas system,larger gas port, higher residual chamber pressues. The bolt is under greater load at the time of unlocking than a mid length or rifle length AR15 system. Stands to reason it takes more force to unlock a bolt under a higher load.
when is the last time anyone heard of a M16 bolt breaking?
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253 Posts
bwah ha hAHAHAHAHAH!!
e'hem...yeah... this summer...meh heh
I just learned about the POF..and had to run over to the xcr forum....
I'm ready for a larger cal. If I start saving right now....I can maybe swing a dashM in a few years...
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