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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have seen in several different posts the reference to "TRUSTS". I assume that you are referring to a "Revocable Trust" that somehow includes or excludes an individual having to go thru the investigation/form 4 deal? I don't really understand. Would someone be so kind as to enlighten me about this subject? I would appreciate it. Thanks in advance.
SINKER
 

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AS someone who has his entire estate as part of a revocable trust, I think I can answer your question. With a trust, no one person owns any one thing (if the trust is setup correctly, that is). I'm not sure if it will work for NFA firearms, because, for example, my bank accounts and even my deed, do not show mine and my wife's name on them. Instead it show the name of the trust with me and my wife as the executors of the trust.

So if my wife and I died, our estate would transfer immediately to our children with their grandmother as the executor and guardian of them and the estate until one is 18, etc. I am not sure if you would need to have your NFA paperwork changed to reflect the trust name or not. I would recommend you contact the ATF about it. I'm pretty sure they will point you in the right direction.
 

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The basics of using a TRUST for NFA ownership.

Use QUICKEN WILLMAKER and create a trust.

Add your NFA items (recievers, supressors...) to the trust.
Have it all notirized.

Now complete the FORM 1 from the BATF and the associated citizenship paperwork. Make sure to NOT mark "individual" application. Attach a copy of the trust and everything to the FORM 1.
Skip the fingerprints and the photo AND THE CLEO signoff :) haha

Send it off

3-4 months later enjoy your new tax stamp in the mail. Insure you engrave your lower, or go pick up your supressor :) TADA!
 

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If you already own NFA items you CAN NOT just add them to your trust. You would have to conduct a transfer, pay the $200 tax and wait for the paperwork to come back. If you are buying new stuff you can setup a Revocable Living Trust using Willmaker. For example, if you want to SBR your XCR you will fill out the Form 1 with the name of your trust. You will mail in a copy of the decleration of Trust, the Schedule A which shows property in the trust (in this case, the serial numbered XCR) and a check for $200.

I have 4 SBRs on my trust and I have yet to send in the citizenship paperwork. If a trust can't be photographed and fingerprinted it stands to reason that a "trust" can't be a citizen of any one country.

I have 2 cans that I will eventually transfer over to my trust, when I get the spare $400 to do it. Until then, they will stay individual.

Also, if you are purchasing a silencer with a trust I don't believe that you can technically add it to your schedule A until you receive the paperwork back. Although you may have paid for it you don't own it until the ATF says you do. It is different for a Lower because you already own it as a Title 1 firearm.
 

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AZ - I cannot disagree with you, as you and I appear to have a similar number of successful trust submissions - but my understanding of the 5330.20 / Certificate of Compliance was to attest that the individual stated on the trust is a US Citizen.

Transfer of firearms to non-citizens or non-immigrant aliens is prohibited in accordance with 18 USC 922(g)(5)(B) - which is why I was instructed to include a Certificate of Compliance.

I've had (3) SOT's advise me to submit the 5330.20 - but I see your point regarding the 'citizenship' status of the trust itself, since it is only a document.

That being said, AZ's success has been without submission - and mine has been with submission - so one could presume that mine were tossed aside as not being a necessary part of the trust submission.
 

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It is always better to send more paperwork, they can always throw it away if they don't need it. My last 2 cans I sent in the dealer told me to submit the citizenship forms. I didn't argue with him as he knows his examiner pretty good so I figured it doesn't hurt. My examiner for Form 1's apparently doesn't think I need to send them but again, they can always file them in the bucket if they don't need them.
 

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I know you have to engrave the lower (on an AR) with the maker's name and the city/state.

What are the rules for a trust? Is engraving required? I'd like to avoid it next time around.....the guy that did mine really screwed it up.

Sean
 

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Yes, you have to engrave the trust name along with city/state. You can search back through some of my old posts and find pics of mine after engraving. Send the Lower to Orion Arms, they do amazing work.
 

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Yes, you have to engrave the trust name along with city/state. You can search back through some of my old posts and find pics of mine after engraving. Send the Lower to Orion Arms, they do amazing work.
Slightly off topic; can the items be lasermarked instead of engraved?
 

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I can't find the relevant ATF reference at the moment - but the engraving has to be a particular size font and depth, that laser engraving does not provide. Mechanical (rotory bit) engraving is the only practical method that will achieve this.

I had a local shop do a couple of mine, and the AR lowers sucked (marginally acceptable after I re-blackened them), but they did a perfect job on my 870SBS receiver. I should have sent them to Orion, but I was in a hurry to get them back.

If you want it done right - Orion is the place. :2cents:
 

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From the NFA Handbook...

7.4.2 Additional information. Certain additional information must also be conspicuously placed on
the frame, receiver, or barrel of the firearm by engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), that is, they
must be placed in such a manner that they are wholly unobstructed from plain view. For firearms
manufactured on or after January 30, 2002, this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch.
The additional information includes:
(1) The model, if such designation has been made;
(2) The caliber or gauge;
(3) The manufacturer’s name (or recognized abbreviation); and
(4) The city and State (or recognized abbreviation) where the manufacturer maintains its place
of business.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Gentlemen,
I truly appreciate your sharing the wealth of knowledge on the subject of a TRUST! It looks like there is quite a bit of work and money involved as well. I mean when you have to refile a deed to property, it costs about $50.00 or so and when you file the Trust it's self, it will probably cost the same....BUT, evidently when we buy a can or some other BTAF controlled item, we can have the Trust buy it and cut out a bunch of the crap, etc.
Again, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR ABLE ASSISTANCE! I have been thinking about doing this for a good while. I had some bum information from an ignorant lawyer and that has kept me from going on ahead and finishing this option. I have also been given to understand, that if one has to go BK, then the items in the Trust are safe.....I know, with our legal system being what it is, we can get sued for the slightest little reason and then, at best, we have to go to Court and defend ourselves! I LOVE OUR COUNTRY, but, Our legal system is the pitts in some ways! Thanks again for your help!
SINKER









AS someone who has his entire estate as part of a revocable trust, I think I can answer your question. With a trust, no one person owns any one thing (if the trust is setup correctly, that is). I'm not sure if it will work for NFA firearms, because, for example, my bank accounts and even my deed, do not show mine and my wife's name on them. Instead it show the name of the trust with me and my wife as the executors of the trust.

So if my wife and I died, our estate would transfer immediately to our children with their grandmother as the executor and guardian of them and the estate until one is 18, etc. I am not sure if you would need to have your NFA paperwork changed to reflect the trust name or not. I would recommend you contact the ATF about it. I'm pretty sure they will point you in the right direction.
 

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Where are you 'filing' the trust? I was given to understand that getting the declaration notarized was all that was required to 'make it officlal' so to speak. Is doesn't look like most states even support registration of the trust, and in those that do it's not really mandatory.

I think that may be the step I was unclear on. Is that not true, that from the standpoint of the trust, all that is required is that you get it notarized each time a change is made. Including either to the individuals specified in the declaration or if something is added to the trust? That there is not a requirement to 'file' or otherwise submit the trust to a government entity to make it a legal document?



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Very few states require you to file a trust with the courthouse. When you do the trust in willmaker it tells you if you are required to file it. You CAN file it if you want in any state but there is no reason to.
 

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AZ is 100% correct.

The trust submission option was discovered by some pretty smart people who read (and obviously understood) the BATFE regulations and determined that a trust was an alternate method of submission for Form 1's and Form 4's in lieu of the CLEO endorsement and fingerprints.

If I could find the guys that started propagating this alternative, I'd shake their hand and buy them a beer! ;D

Now bear in mind that it was also some pretty smart guys who wrote the BATFE regulations - so they obviously had good reason to present this as a legal alternative for law-abiding citizens who otherwise were getting denied ownership of NFA items by their CLEO's for no good reason.
 

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I just wish I had known about this back when I got my first 2 cans. I technically can't leave them in my safe when I deploy as my wife has access to the safe and since they aren't on the trust (my trust specifically states that my wife has access to all trust property) she can't have access to them. I always have to lock them up separate in something that only I have the keys to.

The trust isn't the best for everyone but I think it is great for military guys that are married.
 

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Thanks Aziator for the details of marking. That answers my question. Lasermarking can easily "engrave" to about .005" depth.
 
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