[TerraShrewsbury]

Is this really as awesome as they make it out to be? I'd never heard of them until earlier today... thoughts?

http://www.precisionarms.com/Pages/Rifles/robar.htm#Anchor-4979

 

[Bravo]

Terra - in one word, no.

I know Robbie, he's done work on my stuff too - once. Decades ago, Jeff Cooper recommended him to me - Jeff used to have everything done at Robbie's place (ROBAR). Before he went elsewhere for reasons I won't go into unless asked - same for me.

To quote from the webpage you linked: "Robar - World's Most Accurate Rifles". HA! : Off the top of my head, I can rattle off a half-dozen folks that build more accurate sniper rifles than these.

"This rifle is internationally recognized as an industry standard for precision military style sniper rifles." Uh, no. Not even close. When I talk with other LE or MIL snipers, nobody mentions the ROBAR offerings. These were really pretty good for 1980's technology, but that's what they are.

For a top-end 'out of the box' complete sniper package, take a look at what Norm Jr is putting out at Iron Brigade Armory or what Terry Cross of KMW (Long Range Solutions) has. For more 'a-la-carte' sticks, George Gardner at GAP and Geoff Corn at the Match Armorers Shop do wonders (Geoff gets danged close to 100% of my business on anything accuracy related - he builds semi-autos that are more accurate than the ROBAR '60, mine included).

So does this mean you're getting 'into the long range lifestyle'? >

 

[TerraShrewsbury]

I've mumbled about long distance shooting. Don't do a whole lot of it... the only rifles I get to play with are the Robinson ones.

Thanks for the info, Stan--er, novel... heehee

 

[Bravo]

No worries Terra!

If I had to recommend a reasonable 'off the shelf' rifle right now, there would be no hesitation in "the FN SPR".

One of my best friends took his SPR to the advanced course, his wife took a SCLE from George Gardner. Both shot REALLY well. The SPR is a tremendous value right now, if ordered with the right stock.

Now when the XCR-M comes out, let me know (GRIN) we'll do a couple of sniper courses with them, playing 'em in the spotters / designated marksmans role. I'm betting they'll do anything that needs to be done!

Of course, that's why I'm asking for a 20" to 22" government contour barrel on mine >

 

[Deltaview]

Bravo, I've heard a lot of good things about the FN SPRs. I've never shot one. Do you have any experience with the Savage 10s? I have shot a Savage 10 (not sure what model) and had been looking at some of their law enforcement models to replace my -06 bolt rifle. It gun was better than I was as a shooter! Do you have any experience with the Savage 10s?

 

[Bravo]

Some experience, but not a tremendous lot.

What I came away with was that I liked the Savage very much. The 'weak link' on the Savage is the cheeseball stock in my opinion. With a little pressure on it -and I'm being serious, not much pressure at all- it wants to rub up against the freefloated barrel. Of course, when it does that, it's not freefloated any more.

With a McMillan stock, or (I've heard - not seen) the HS stock, the Savage is a GREAT choice. The Accutrigger I figured would be a gimmick - it's not!

One of the long-range guys I know took a router to the barrel channel of his Savage, and essentially bedded an aluminum channel in there from the action to the fore end tip. Now it's stable. Elsewise, one of the better stocks is the answer I've seen. If it weren't for that and another mild issue or two, I'd call the Savage the one to buy.

As-is, they're good, but not quite great. The thing is, if you pick up a Savage in a McMillan stock, they're close enough in price to an SPR that the barrel difference and optics base sides me with the SPR. That's not to say that the Savage isn't a tremendous value though!

 

[TerraShrewsbury]

Stan, you're such a help around here Is there anything you don't know?? :inlove:

 

[Bravo]

Yeah, there's plenty I don't know about...... I just won't talk about those things ;D

After all, how else can I keep up appearances? >

Really though - that's mostly the 100% truth. If I don't know, I just keep quiet, or put some kind of disclaimer in there such as the (I've heard - not seen).

 

[aziator]

Stan, you're such a help around here Is there anything you don't know?? :inlove:

The key is to only be wrong when nobody is paying attention :2cents:

 

[shane45]

Savage is .... ok but by the time you restock it and bed it, your getting close to the SPR. I would much rather have an SPR than a restocked savage. To add to that, if you find you dont like it, you can get the majority of your money back out of an SPR. If you arent fastidious about cleaning because your XCR ruined you on that, the SPR is the way to go due to its chrome lined barrel. If you step up to the A3G, you get a rifle that was bedded by GAP and a Titanium rail thats the best in the business. Another option is the remy LTR. Still can be found for around 850 and is the small block chevy of rifles. Pretty much every part is made by several vendors for a 700. The only other reason some go with the savage is because they want to play with barrel swapping which is easier on the savage as opposed to the remy and FN.

Shane

 

[Bravo]

Shane, there are several of us that are 'turned off' of Remmies.

The reason is because some of their more current rifles should have been sold as parts kits instead of rifles. They WERE that bad.

I'd recommend a SPR or a Savage over a Remmie 9 times out of 10.

 

[MickeyC]

Terra,

If you want to get into long range shooting and don't want to spend a fortune at the start, try this combination:

Tika T3 Varmint in .308 with a Millett TRS or the new LRS scope.

My wife bought a Tikka in .223 for messing about and I figured what the heck as it lets me practice shooting skills while using relatively cheap .308 loads rather than my .338 Lapua match gun.

The Tikka I have has shot a 0.25" group from a sandbag at 100 yards. And the whole combination cost me less than $1000. It's a good smooth action, fantastic trigger and guaranteed 1" accurate out of the box. I reload RA military brass, 168g SMK tips with 45 grains of AA2520 pushed by a Winchester Large Rifle primer. six out of ten rounds went out of the barrell at 2754fps. The combination is cheap, accurate and consistent.

If you get into it later you can always drop a few grand on a top class rifle but I can use the Tika to 1000 yards and hit nice tight groups.

Just my :2cents:

 

[Bravo]

And the dark horse rears its head!

OK, now here's the reason I didn't recommend the Tikka - I don't have enough experience with them PERSONALLY.

What I can say is that my EXTREMELY limited experience has been 100% positive, and the ONE that I saw at a sniper course did WONDERFULLY.

The thing is, I can't recommend something based on what I saw out of two rifles - after all, great experiences with two of the same thing is hardly statistical. That best friend of mine that ran the SPR, his wife running the GAP SCLE - he bought one of the Tikkas just a few months ago and has nothing but great things to say about it so far, but hasn't wrung it out hard enough to really know how it goes in the long haul.

Mickey knows his stuff, so if he says they're good, that just means the two I have experience with weren't flukes. The thing my buddy said about the Tikka was that they were C-H-E-A-P!!! As in inexpensive enough that he's thinking of getting another one before they sell out.

I just couldn't recommend them personally...... goes back to that part about me keeping my mouth shut if I didn't know what's what ;D

 

[gunner69]

VERY nice group, Mickey. ;D opcorn: :clap: :crossedfingers:

 

[shane45]

Bravo, I havent owned a stock stick for some time but I have heard the same thing you are saying. However, the LTR seems to be the exception. I really havent run into a bad one. With that being said, my AI AW is due in tommorow

Shane

 

[MickeyC]

Bravo I know where you're at. Advice is only good if it is from experience.

I have a 700 long action with a custom bolt sitting on an AI chassis that shoots 1/2 inch .338 Lapua groups all day long from a 27" LW tube. Best group so far is a 0.7" at 200 yards. I don't group beyond 300 because I tend to shoot steel for silouett hits.

I went the 700 route because I had used the old PM series in the British Army and like the chassis but wasn't so loving of the action. The AW is a much improved verion of that action but unless I'm going to be trapsing through mud all day long offers no benefits over a 700 action. One benefit of the 700 action is the parts availability and easy acces to gunsmiths who know it. The other is the cost difference which lets me spend a couple of grand having a gunsmith do a lot of work to improve accuracy.

But, you can't beat Tikka for quality and accuracy at their price point. I was skeptical until my wife got one, all on her own I might add. She is now shooting 1/2-3/4 inch groups of a sandbag with no trouble at all. (77 SMK over H335 from military brass.)

I've used the Pre-64 Winchester action and it's not bad but the safety is a POS. I have a friends shoting 0.6" groups from a 46 year old rifle. Nice but shite safety.

From my experience I can't see a better way to start chucking accurate 30 cal downrange without having to spend a mint, than the Tikka. Minimal investment and maximum fun. If this is still fun after a few months or whtever then you'll feel better about dropping 5k on a custom rifle or maybe even decide that you don't need more. $670 for a Tikka that does what a $3500 cutsom rifle does....hmmmmm.... decisions, decisions. the other benefit with the Tikka is the magazine loading. you can carry different rounds in magazines and change them very quickly. So for example if you are shooting long range and can't test the wind. Drop in a tracer, see the bullet path and adjust accordingly.

The only other advice is don't buy used unless you can test it first or you already plan on a new tube. You don't know if it's been broken in properly, abused, shot out or whatever. Breaking is a big deal because a small variance at 100 yards has a big effect at range. And finally, quit drinking caffene.

 

[Bravo]

Exactly so!

My Cajun buddy with a bad attitude has an AI, loves the thing. Since he's amphibious SWAT, I take his word on certain things (GRIN). Sure seems to work well, and that's a fact! I've got absolutely zero trigger time on one myself.

If this conversation was taking place a few years ago, I'd have recommended a Winchester Stealth. Those things were scary right out of the box - and for 650FRN, quite the bargain! My partner bought one back before 2000, and all he did was tweek the trigger. Not that his was anything nifty, but he's a good shot. With that rifle as-was, he was the high shooter on the state 1000 yard championship.

If someone offered me a used Stealth at that price, I'd grab it unless something obvious was wrong. Of course, I stand the same chance of that happening as being abducted by flying monkies.......

 

[MickeyC]

Experience is individual.

I know people who love a 9mm because the recoil is light, others who like .40 becasue .45 has too much kick. I prefer .45 because it's less snappy. Go figure!

Nothing beats personal experience.....and good conversation.

 

[firemancjack]

Terra - in one word, no.

I know Robbie, he's done work on my stuff too - once. Decades ago, Jeff Cooper recommended him to me - Jeff used to have everything done at Robbie's place (ROBAR). Before he went elsewhere for reasons I won't go into unless asked - same for me.

Wow thats something that you knew Jeff Cooper. There was someone I admired. Love his outlooks on life. Miss his articles and teachings.

 

[Bravo]

Misc ramblings about Jeff Cooper, Robbie, and ROBAR.

This happened about a half-year before Jeff had his book The Art of the Rifle published.....
I took off from WSMR on my motorcycle, gonna head through Phoenix to drop a pistol off at ROBAR, then on to Gunsite - with a Colt Officers ACP.

As I said, Jeff used to really like heading down to Robbie's place - he drove until very late in life, even long after he would more shuffle than walk. That highway, from Gunsite to Phoenix, is a twisty-turny sucker. If you don't get boxed in behind someone, it's a GREAT road for hotrodding. When the turns are marked warning 20 MPH, they actually mean it (GRIN) - on a bike it's as good as Walt Disney ever thought about. Jeff loved to take it in that Acura of his (isn't the Acura the one with the intertwined circles?) and recommended the trip on bike ;D

So I get done lining out the work to be done on the pistol at ROBAR, when a mutual friend of ours walks in. Noting the ruck on the back of the bike, he asks "so where you headed from here?" - I tell him up to Jeff's place for a bit. Cool. So he says that I've got to ask about the lion - made me commit to asking Jeff about the lion. Sure.

Here's the story I got, along with some stuff to make it more understandable...... Jeff was BIG into African hunting. Loved it. Specifically, he loved hunting dangerous stuff. Well, it turns out that the mutual friend had accompanied Jeff on his last safari, and had an interesting tale to tell. Several guys went over (Jeff said that he took all his kids and all his grandkids to Africa at least once) one of which wanted a lion mane in a bad way.

When they all get over there, they stake out a good pride of lions, and the fellow takes his shot on a big male. Unfortunately, things didn't go right - the lion moved and took the round farther back than ideal, then ran off into the elephant grass. He took the time to explain, the elephant grass over there is about 7 feet tall, and THICK. Sure. So Jeff asks him about going and getting his lion, and the guy responds with essentially a WTF look. Sure 'nuff, the hunting party lines out in a skirmish line, and walks slowy into the elephant grass to chase down a really big wounded lion

Something else that needed explanation was that a lion, when wounded, would head into the grass like that not to get away from the attacker, but to set himself up properly for an ambush of whatever attacker followed after him. WOW. It seems that the 'lucky attacker' was Jeff. He said that he saw the grass begin to part, brought up his rifle, and all he saw in the split-second was a tooth in the scope - he fired. The bullet went right down the front end of the lion, which made him tumble. When the lion came to a stop, it was almost dead but bleeding out on Jeff's boots

At that point, it was a matter of "here's your lion" ;D After that display though, the fellow said that it wasn't HIS lion, it was Jeff's. No questions. So the lion mane was taken and such.

At that point, he took me over to this little bureau off to the side of the livingroom. Sure enough, there was that lion mane. On top of it was a BEAUTIFUL Garand on display. And that is where the cover art for The Art of the Rifle came from

Unfortunately, the last time I was out there, he wasn't doing well at all. It was my son's first time out at Gunsite, so I was hoping he'd get a chance to meet Jeff. I owed that old man a lot - he's the reason I'm working where I am. Unfortunately, Jeff wasn't doing well - a couple of months later he breathed his last. While I was out there though, I did visit with Janelle - she's the epitome of class if there ever was one. She said that Jeff had said right out that if he had it all over to do again, he wouldn't have changed anything. At the end, he was sharp as a tack mentally, and living on ice cream and peanut butter sandwiches - what he loved. A decent end to a tremendous life.

I haven't stopped by since he died, but one of our buddies forwarded some pictures of the place he's buried there - at the school. The most fitting I'd say.