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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Scope Suggestions 20" AR New Build

I'm building a new 20" AR and need suggestions for the optics.

This is not a Match Rifle but I want a bit more magnification then what I have on my 16" AR. ( Leupold Mark 4 1.5-5x20mm MR/T M2 WITH LaRue LT 104-30 MOUNT)

I have looked at some possible scopes like the Super Sniper SS10X42M and the TR-22R Trijicon 2.5-10x56 Accu-Point 30mm ( NOT SURE I LIKE THE RED TRIANGLE)

The IOR 2.5-10x42 Tactical 30mm Rifle Scope but what reticle? Illuminated MP-8 or First Focal Plane Reticle


I need help...I'm not sure if 10X is the way to go.

The Ranges I get to shoot at are typically out to 300 yards.

Any help is appreciated.

( I'm willing to spend up to 1000.00 )
 

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Re: Scope Suggestions 20" AR New Build

FWIW, one of the things I was 'out for' at SHOT was similar.

Specifically, I was looking at all the decent optics and mounts, in preparation of the XCR-M coming out. The one I've almost 100% sold myself on is the Nightforce 1-4X illuminated reticle.

Quick reticle, not standard crosshairs (there were two reticles there I was VERY impressed with) - the illumination goes down far enough that a PVS14 behind it is compatible! When those new digital NVD handhelds come out in a weapon mounted platform, I'll be ALL OVER them. They WERE that impressive - WAY better than my PVS14.

As an added bonus, Nightforce said that they'd shipped a slew of turrets for that scope to Kenton for custom laser etching. You call up Kenton and give them the specs: 200 yards is 2.5 MOA from 100 yards (etc - all the way out to whatever you want within the scopes range) and they make your turret just for your stick / ammo combo. It just changes out the turret that comes with it - but the 1/2 MOA version is better for this application than the 1/4 MOA version obviously.

It's a real winner in my opinion - the next better scope would be the Schmitt and Bender - for 1200FRN more.

On price, the Nightforce is just a TOUCH more expensive than your 1000FRN limit.

FWIW, I was also very impressed with the Trijicon Accupoint, although I'd still go with the low-magnification version myself. For out to 300 yards? There's no way I'd go with anything with a higher starting magnification than 1X - but that's just me.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Re: Scope Suggestions 20" AR New Build

Bravo

I'm basically Optically challenged and you are talking way over my head. I already have a Leupold Mark 4 1.5-5x20mm MR/T M2 on my 16" AR and it sounds like you are reccomending a Night Force version of my
Leupold.

Forgive me but I'm confused...
 

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Re: Scope Suggestions 20" AR New Build

Yeah, does sound like I'm advocating something similar (GRIN).

Yeah, I've become 'optically challenged' within the last few years myself. Ghost targets at 400 and out give me fits now - that never was the case before. I never noticed it, 'cause my standard practice target is white on black - high contrast.

I looked into what the Leupold folks had at SHOT, although I dislike the idea of buying anything from those jokers now. Besides that, the Leupold stuff isn't much less expensive than the Nightforce - the Nightforce stuff being better quality.

To my way of thinking, a battle rifle optic needs to have essentially a non-magnified low-end. 1X or 1.1X, something I can't distinguish from non-magnified. With my Aimpoint M3 (2 MOA dot) I was cleaning house on the 400 yard targets, so that's what I used as the basis of the other requirements.

Something with a reticle that allows ranges greater than 400 yards (at 400, the visible scoring area of the siloughette was covered with the dot, I just made sure to put the head up over the dot LOL!) so it has to be thinner or different somehow (the suspended dot of the Nightforce for instance).

The red dots work SOOOOO well for fast-in, an illuminated reticle is a must IMO. And it has to work with night vision.

A touch of magnification never hurts, but figuring out the top end is a personal preference....... although the biggest magnification jump I've seen is 1 to 7 IIRC.

My problem with higher magnifications on the low end is that now you're limiting your field of view unduly, and it's better to see more than just an eyeball or some such on the close-in targets. So think of it this way: if you can hit reliably to 400 yards with iron sigts, a 10X magnification brings that same target to 40 yards optically. That's CLOSE.

I've got a 10X on my spotters rifle, one of the older Mk4 M3's, back when that meant something - mine is a Premier conversion. For up-close, it sucks. For nightfiring, it's "limited" to say the least - the lower power lets more light through, to a point (the point being where the column of light gets bigger until it matches your pupil diameter - after that it seems to get dimmer again) it's WORTH having the variable option.

All that to say that a 10X at 300 yards is a target scope. For a 'working' stick, you don't need anything that big, unless you're concerned with making 'much more accurate than headshot' hits - and only on stationary targets. At the advanced sniper course, I was using my spotters rifle on movers at 300. Heck, I've got one of the mover siloughettes stapled to my office wall >:D At that point, I wish I'd had less magnification than the fixed 10X, I'll tell you that for sure.
 

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Re: Scope Suggestions 20" AR New Build

Bravo, I'd heard Nightforce was upgrading the electronics on their 1x-4x so they were comparable to the S&B (i.e. daylight visible, and not just "sorta" visible on overcast days). Any truth to that rumor?
 

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Re: Scope Suggestions 20" AR New Build

I'd call it truth to that - I thought the dot was about the same as my Aimpoint, and I have no problems using my Aimpoint in the desert / summer / brightness.

Granted, that was my 'calibrated eye', but it APPEARED to me to be just as bright - since those Nightforce guys wouldn't trust me to head outside with their scope >:D I had to just 'eyeball' it LOL!
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Re: Scope Suggestions 20" AR New Build

I have narrowed it down to a few choices.

Any words of wisdom that may sway me is appreciated. I want more magnification then my 1.5 -5x20 so please don't offer anything other then what I have listed. ;D



1. Leupold Mark 4 Long Range Tactical M1 Scope 30mm Tube 4.5-14x 50mm Side Focus Illuminated Tactical Milling Reticle Matte

2. Leupold Mark 4 Long Range Tactical M1 Scope 30mm Tube 4.5-14x 50mm Side Focus Tactical Milling Reticle Matte

3. Leupold Mark 4 Long Range Tactical M1 Scope 30mm Tube 3.5-10x 40mm Side Focus Illuminated Tactical Milling Reticle Matte

4. Leupold Mark 4 Long Range Tactical M1 Scope 30mm Tube 3.5-10x 40mm Side Focus Tactical Milling Reticle Matte
__________________
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Re: Scope Suggestions 20" AR New Build

I went with.....................

1. Leupold Mark 4 Long Range Tactical M1 Scope 30mm Tube 4.5-14x 50mm Side Focus Illuminated Tactical Milling Reticle Matte

I will post photos when I get it set up..

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
 

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Re: Scope Suggestions 20" AR New Build

Sounds like a nice scope...

You might want to consider re-doing your rifle build to be a bit more match-like if you want to really use that scope. My 20" AR, I built specifically to be a milspec M16 clone, and as such, it is not a match rifle, and even with the most accurate handload I have produced to date (granted that is my very first try at handloading, but it still grouped less than half the size of what I could do with M193), the 4x Acog is still more capable than the rifle, it seems. I imagine a 4.5-14 scope would be of little real use on my particular rifle. I would want something more accurate that could make legitimate use of the scope.
 

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Re: Scope Suggestions 20" AR New Build

Here's the deal with paralax:
As the objective gets bigger, the paralax increases. As the magnification increases, the paralax increases.

That's the reason a high-power scope ALWAYS has a focus, while 1X optics (especially the small objective kind) hardly ever (read that as virtually never) have a focus.

A 4X 80mm scope (i.e. camera lens) would have a focus, a 4X 24mm scope wouldn't (i.e. ACOG). Same reason.

Your scope has a paralax adjustment (focus) because of both reasons - 50mm objective, large magnification. With that scope, the focus adjustment is more critical. Large enough to be a problem anyway, even 4X will have a bit of problems at 50mm.

So now you're in the boat of having to adjust focus for shots within 300 yards (the range you gave). Inside 300 yards, most folks are running iron sights, FAST. On the square range, that works great - for a field stick, it's a problem. Since you said that this wasn't a 'match rifle', I assumed it was a field stick.

On a field stick, with expectations of 'within 300 yards', speed is something I wouldn't underestimate in importance. Neither would I underestimate being able to keep the targets in focus. But that's just me.........
 

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Re: Scope Suggestions 20" AR New Build

What ranges do you intend to shoot at and what kind of groups do you want to be capable of?
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Re: Scope Suggestions 20" AR New Build

I went with.....................

1. Leupold Mark 4 Long Range Tactical M1 Scope 30mm Tube 4.5-14x 50mm Side Focus Illuminated Tactical Milling Reticle Matte

I will post photos when I get it set up..

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
 
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