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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I picked up the 2 Feb copy of Shotgun News; the feature articel was about the Para AR designed by ZM, the article was written by Daivd Fortier. In the opening paragraghs he discusses how their are new rifles in particular SCAR, ACR and the XCR, and how they can not compete with the AR for price. That is true, but you will get what you paid for. IMO Here is where I have some problems with the article; "The XCR is an interesting design and continues to plug away, but (right or wrong) it has failed to grab the attention of the shooters in the manner of the AR."

Now the ZM AR was one of my the dream rifles I always wanted. However the asking price in the early 2000s was over $2k. Now here we are 2009 and the ZM is still over $2.5K. The upper alone is almost $1.8K

I just thought I would share with you all what I read today. This really saddens me. I will be honest if I had a choice between the XCR and the ZM I would take the XCR hands down. Ergo and ability to change calibers alone...
 

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Fortier is an AR fanboy.The articles of his that I've read tend to favor direct impingement because it's more accurate(his opinion)and,if I recall,because his dislike of the weight of the piston.It's been awhile so I'm not certain of the second one.Anyway his point about the XCR not being able to compete with the AR in price is pure crap.Yea sure you can buy a crapptastic Bushmaster bare-bones bushmaster for less than an XCR,but if you look at features vs cost,the XCR wins hands down.Not to mention if you buy a quality AR with a railed fore end,than see how many you'll get for much under 2 grand.
 

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HA! Comparing the ZM to the XCR is a damn funny joke.

As for the XCR not being able to compete with the AR15 on price, lets put that theory to the test.

An XCR with MI sights and folding VLTOR is $1600 at a local dealer

An LMT MRP DI carbine without sights is $1,640. It's funny how when doing a near apples to apples comparison the XCR suddenly becomes the best value in the industry.
 

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I will play the debbils advocate here.
It would be correct to say the XCR has failed to grab the attention of the shooters in the manner of the AR 15
The AR15 has had a 45 year head start on the market. 50 years of magazine articles. Dozens of producers. Countless after market products and accessories. Lots more visibility and shooter awareness.

The XCR has been on the market for just under 3 years now.
 

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I tgink it can be contributed to external factors but just by looking at new memberships here the XCR is gaining more ground. The fanboys for the other stuff are now looking back at the rifle they scoffed at since they won't be getting the other thing.

And as for the ZM thing, I own one, it's neat but it isn't all what it is supposed to be. It doesn't run any cleaner than a standard DI. The recoil is pretty much the same, afterall, it's 5.56 I don't know how much you can remove it and still allow the rifle to function reliably. So the stock can fold, the mechanism is so klunky and uncomfortable to shoot it isn't much of a plus for your typical shooter. We talked a little about it on another thread but I think the ZM system could be better if it was mod'd to a long stroke piston.
 

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HA! Comparing the ZM to the XCR is a damn funny joke.

As for the XCR not being able to compete with the AR15 on price, lets put that theory to the test.

An XCR with MI sights and folding VLTOR is 00 at a local dealer

An LMT MRP DI carbine without sights is =0000034553,640. It's funny how when doing a near apples to apples comparison the XCR suddenly becomes the best value in the industry.
This is a little off topic but the cheapest AR15's I could find so far (Armalite, Bushmaster, & DPMS). All run of the mil basic rifle. Armalite just offered the flat top at that price. But DPMS & Bushmaster were both offered as a flat top and fixed handle (A2&A3 models).

Armalite: M15 A4 CARBINE CHR. BLK. WITHOUT CARRY HANDLE $975
Bushmaster: A2 target model 20in $1095
DPMS: Panther™ Lite 20, Panther™ A3 Lite 16, & the Panther™ Lite 16" $725

I know these are bare-bones or close to it. And I'm sure other companies might be cheaper. But by the time you change stocks,
fore arms, and the such. You get either very close or even exceed the cost of the XCR. And still none of the benefits.
 

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HA! Comparing the ZM to the XCR is a damn funny joke.

As for the XCR not being able to compete with the AR15 on price, lets put that theory to the test.

An XCR with MI sights and folding VLTOR is 00 at a local dealer

An LMT MRP DI carbine without sights is =0000034553,640. It's funny how when doing a near apples to apples comparison the XCR suddenly becomes the best value in the industry.
More than just value, its the engineering. Look at the XCR Bolt head design with its humungo locking lugs and its extractor.
Those two features alone are note worthy advancements. I could go on for hours but who wants to hear me preach to the choir?
 

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Look at the XCR Bolt head design with its humungo locking lugs and its extractor.
Don't forget the fixed ejector.No plunger thingy to get cruded up an no spring to fail.Oh yea sorry for the choir preachin' thing too... ;D
 

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Look at the XCR Bolt head design with its humungo locking lugs and its extractor.
Don't forget the fixed ejector.No plunger thingy to get cruded up an no spring to fail.Oh yea sorry for the choir preachin' thing too... ;D
all together,,,
Aah-aaah-ahh-ahhaaaahahalll-ri-gh-teey-nowww ;)



sorry bout being a lil off key there
 

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HA! Comparing the ZM to the XCR is a damn funny joke.

As for the XCR not being able to compete with the AR15 on price, lets put that theory to the test.

An XCR with MI sights and folding VLTOR is 00 at a local dealer

An LMT MRP DI carbine without sights is =0000034572,640. It's funny how when doing a near apples to apples comparison the XCR suddenly becomes the best value in the industry.
More than just value, its the engineering. Look at the XCR Bolt head design with its humungo locking lugs and its extractor.
Those two features alone are note worthy advancements. I could go on for hours but who wants to hear me preach to the choir?
The XCR has a problem. The problem is a bunch of hard headed AR15 fanboys entrenched in the industry. Anyone remember Sweeney's article where he stated the XCR was really good, but saw no reason to get one since he had AR15's? Personally, I have an XCR, and see no reason to purchase another AR15 ;)

Some people get it. Too many more dont.
 

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Anyone remember Sweeney's article where he stated the XCR was really good, but saw no reason to get one since he had AR15's? Personally, I have an XCR, and see no reason to purchase another AR15

Some people get it. Too many more don't.
I remember it.The way he tried to reason around everything just proves what a fanboy he is.Most of the time when I see one of his articles now I just pass on by.It's a shame people can't be more open minded.
 

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I admit it.......I am not a devotee of the Holy Church of AR with the received wisdom of DI.......... >:D

I will further admit to a certain perverse pleasure in poking ARFCOM'ers with a stick on this issue on an occasional basis and am currently in therapy for it..... ::)

Some of the fundamentals of the XCR versus the rest include

Ignorance (of the product)
Ignorance (stupidity)
Advertising
Inertia
conservatism views (small "c" not big "C")
Little America (If it's good enough for the army of the US of A it's gotta be good)
Small installed user base in the XCR
Early adopter fear


On the whole, XCR users have spent a lot of time looking for the right platform and not just settling for lowest common denominator with extra bolt on widgets.

There is no real argument that the XCR in-toto is a far better bit of kit than the AR platform but I also like things that do it differently.

That's why I am seriously slavering about not just the XCR-M but Kel-Tec's RFB bullpup in 7.62x51.
 

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I am in the same boat with the XCR-M and the KelTec RFB
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I tgink it can be contributed to external factors but just by looking at new memberships here the XCR is gaining more ground. The fanboys for the other stuff are now looking back at the rifle they scoffed at since they won't be getting the other thing.

And as for the ZM thing, I own one, it's neat but it isn't all what it is supposed to be. It doesn't run any cleaner than a standard DI. The recoil is pretty much the same, afterall, it's 5.56 I don't know how much you can remove it and still allow the rifle to function reliably. So the stock can fold, the mechanism is so klunky and uncomfortable to shoot it isn't much of a plus for your typical shooter. We talked a little about it on another thread but I think the ZM system could be better if it was mod'd to a long stroke piston.
Is the ZM DI or piston driven? I thought it was piston drivin... I will be honest the only reason I wanted one was how cool it looked. Plus the model I liked was being produced back in the early 2000s. The SBR version was Sierra Hotel!!!!! Then I found the XCR. Thats when I knew I was in love... :inlove:

No I don't have a wife nor a girl friend or even an interest... :'( That means I can buy all the guns I want... ;D
 

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Dredd here is my comment from a discussion the group was having awhile back.


That Para is nothing but a relicensed ZM-weapons rifle.It has a unique operating system.It's called (DIGS) delayed impinged gas system,and is nothing really more than an extended gas key with the recoil spring wrapped around it under the handgaurds.While this is much better than regular impingement,I can't see the roughly $2300 asking price(retail).
What really gets me in an interview in a magazine review I read awhile ago,Al Zitta(the inventor) made the comment that one of the reasons his system was better than piston driven guns is because his system is cheaper to build. Also piston gun don't allow the bolt carrier to be used as a heat sink,which imparts less heat the barrel vs a piston gun the barrel stays hotter.
Pardon me,I'm no engineer but why in blue hell would you want the bolt carrier to be used as a heat sink when,guess what,it cooks the BOLT!!! On a piston driven system the excess heat goes out the handcarts.I remember these quotes specifically,but I will try to find the articles.



http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1173


http://world.guns.ru/assault/as97-e.htm
 

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Of all places, go to the "Stocks" thread and see my post about new stock ideas, there are a bunch of pics on there of the ZM. The bolt essentially has a long gas key that mates up with a shorter gas tube. The system allows the return spring to be part of the gas key/op rod and gives you a shorter bolt and no lower receiver extension so a folding stock is possible. Because the gas key is always in contact with the gas tube it doesn't blow gas into the upper like a DI. But, it still blows gas into the bolt and carrier. The extra holes in the carrier help releive some of that gas pressure but it still cakes into the carrier and around the bolt something fierce.

Don't get me wrong, it's a fine rifle. I got it for much the same reason you want one; it looked cool! If they made it long stroke I tihnk they'd have something worth the hype; stronger long stroke piston (less moving parts) and folding stock. You could really do some neat stuf with that platform if so.
 

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I used to drool over the older ZM's. However, at this stage I regard them is being far too expensive for what you get, and in terms of craftmanship, it's taken many steps backward from Zitta's original vision. YHM and Para have really ruined that gun

This is what ZM used to be





 

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As soon as I pick up my new lower I'm gonna SBR it too. My ZM upper will look mighty fine on there.
 
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