[MrSmitty]

A bunch of XCR haters over there say a Sig 550/PE-90 is more ergonomic than a XCR and tell me I am amatuer for saying otherwise.

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=280290&page=3

 

[MickeyC]

Can't read it, can you paste the commentary in here.

 

[MrSmitty]

Quote from myself
Swiss arms PE90 has a few things that better than the XCR.

Swiss Arms PE90 Advantages
- More accurate
- Proven design (reliability)
- Sweet Trigger
- Fit and Finish

XCR Advantages
-Ergonomics
-Cost (1800-2000 vs 2800-3000)
-Full length top rail and quad rail system (no need to buy scope mounts and such)
-Reliability? (Very new design but based on the design should be extremely reliable once broken in)
-Ability to use AR mags which are plentiful and cheap + 10 round pistol mags (could also be considered a disavantage due to AR mags reliability)
-Able to change to a variety of calibers in a matter of minutes (7.62x39,5.56x45, 6.8SPC, 6.5 Grendel)

Quote from Beltfed
"Why is it when we get a 'this vs. that' thread, fanboys of said crappy system that has zero hope in hell of competing at the same level of the 'vs' system come out of the woodwork to come to their poorly chosen purchase's defence?

I've played with an XCR and can confirm without having to put rounds through it that it is an utter piece of sh!t.


Drawing comparisons to the Swiss PE-90 or whatever you want to call it, is like comparing a New Mercedes to a Chevy Cavalier - They do both get you from point 'A' to point 'B' but that is where it ends."

Another Quote from Belt Fed
"Obviously there are different levels of what we see and expect out of a new rifle. Additionally, there is enough negative personal experience out there with the XCRs to draw a reasonable conclusion to what you are really getting from one. If you doubt any of this, look to the previous Robarms system they marketed.
The fact that I think the XCR is a failure hardly makes me a fanboy of the SAN guns.
However, I would question the opinion of anyone who thinks the XCR has a reliability and ergonomics advantage over the Sig."

Quote From Myself
"The XCR has a huge Ergonomics advantage over the SIG. I will name them. Left side charging handle (unless of course if you are a lefty but most of us are rightys) no need to remove you eyes from the target when charging the rifle. Easy to reach bolt catch/release, easy to reach mag release, Free fall mags, Full length rail and quad rail system. Those are just to name a few.

Reliability is for the moment the thumbs up to the SIG but thats because it is a tried and tested design that has been a round for a while. Give the XCR some time to work things out in 10-15 years we will see where it is at."

Quote From Beltfed
"Originally Posted by mrsmitty
The XCR has a huge Ergonomics advantage over the SIG. I will name them. Left side charging handle (unless of course if you are a lefty but most of us are rightys)

This is your personal issue and nothing more.
There are alot of platforms with the charging handles on either side.
I'm a lefty and I have no issues charging right side or left side charging handles. I've shot all of these right handed too, and have no issues.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsmitty
no need to remove you eyes from the target when charging the rifle.

What the hell are you talking about? Why would one side make the difference over another?


Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsmitty
Easy to reach bolt catch/release, easy to reach mag release, Free fall mags, Full length rail and quad rail system. Those are just to name a few.

Rails have nothing to do with ergonomics, and all of the controls on a Sig are easily reached. Free fall mags? yep, the Sigs will do that too if you know what you are doing....

Speaking of 'knowing what you're doing' You may want to consider your 'ergonomic advantages' as a training issue (ie. personal) and not stack it up against the rifle you are using...just a thought.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsmitty
Reliability is for the moment the thumbs up to the SIG but thats because it is a tried and tested design that has been a round for a while. Give the XCR some time to work things out in 10-15 years we will see where it is at.

Yeah, I can see how you would compare a system that has gone through extensive testing, has been operationally deployed with militaries for what, about 30 years, and allow it to hold a reliability edge 'for the moment' over the XCR."

Quote from Rich_LPS
"I can understand someone who owns an XCR or whatever defending it and thinking it's the greatest gun ever.

But...

If you think that the XCR is even in the same league as the SAN rifles you are exposing yourself as an amateur. Plain and simple. You can bitch about the price of the SAN products all you want but they are one of the highest quality, most durable weapons ever produced. Amateur's usually don't have real world experience with weapons, they just read gun magazines and target shoot at the range.

I've heard alot of funny things on this form but XCR being in the same class as SAN rifles takes the cake.

Rich"

Just some of the ridculous comments

 

[aziator]

I don't have any hands on experience with the Swiss Arms PE90 but it sounds to me like they are just extremely closed minded and don't want to hear that there are other platforms available that run and run well. I wouldn't sweat it, you are in a loosing arguement with them.

 

[MrSmitty]

Yes I gave up arguing with them. The PE-90 which is the civilian equivalent to the Sig 550 used to be the only black rifle available to the Canadian civilian that wasn't restricted to range only use. It has a strong following in Canada including myself. But these guys won't accept anything else now. Just like many AR users shun any other rifle platform without trying them. They accuse me of being a fanboy but I never stated that the XCR was the best ever rifle I just told them simple facts of ergos and advantages of each system and I get labeled a fanboy. Yes I like my XCR but I will not say its the end all be all of rifles either. I get pretty pissed off though when Ignorance is used as safety net.

 

[aziator]

Sounds to me like they are the FanBoys.

 

[ShogunOfHarlem]

Yeah, that's funny that you got called a fanboy. You made a statement backed by points that you have had experience with and one of them knows the XCR is a piece of crap because he handled one once.

What clowns.

 

[captain92]

Basically, sounds like a bunch of libotards :duh:

 

[dont_tread_on_me]

Just in case it comes up again,the main advantage of the charging handle on the left is so you don't have to remove your hand from the firing controls,and it is closer to the operator(because the rifle is mounted on your right shoulder it's more awkward to reach with your right ,than with your left) so you don't have to lower the weapon to recharge it.Which is the reason you mentioned not having to take your eyes off the target.
If your head is one the left side of the stock(right hander) then you might have to roll the weapon a little to see/reach for the charging handle on say an AK,or a Mini 14,whereas on the XCR your head is on the same side as the charging handle and even if you do have to look for it,it's a quick glance vs a roll the weapon and look,plus hold the rifle by the forearm with your left hand while charging with your right.
Your troll friend makes the point about ergonomics being a training issue,Well that's partially true,BUUUUUT the bottom line is when controls are within easy reach and well thought out,it makes magazine changes and overall running of the rifle much faster,especially for people who don't have the time to train like the military.which by the way could mean the difference between an eternal dirt nap and living to see your family the next day.
Obviously he don't know what the hell he's talking about and has blind faith in an old system that not much more than a highly refined AK,and that is a complement.The problem with people who are close minded to new ideas is that they tend to be condescending of those who chose to look for new and better ideas.wether it be small arms or any other new technology.
The bottom line for you here is that these kinds of people aren't worth the breath wasted to try to get them to accept the possibility of new ideas,much less that some of these "new fangled ideas" might be better than some of the old ones.

 

[Bravo]

Tell your troll that he displays his ignorance flatly through his statements.

I was all set to LOVE and BUY a Sig or three. If the production run had been nearly as good as the pre-production ones at SHOT were, I would have too.

The big-mouth says he's never fired it, but it's junk. Uh, yeah.

OK - so let him know that my first XCR did a CQB course at Gunsite. It was the most reliable weapon on the line, bar none. My second XCR did a modified SWAT course at BadLands. There was ONE other there as reliable (an 18" M14) - but we were ticking along LONG after the AR types (including the Colt Commando's) quit working.

As such, I'm qualified to make comments regarding the XCR. They're more ergonomic than ANYTHING that has a charging handle on the right side or the rear (like the AR types).

Of course, the real question is what I'll do with XCR number 3 and XCR number 4. In any case, if I thought there was a better carbine, I'd OWN that instead.

Give someone a Sig and have him run side-by-side with me. We'll trade, and then run it again. The difference is easy for everyone to see. That is, anyone objective that doesn't have an agenda to prove.

 

[gunner69]

Yer me bloody hero Bravo.....

 

[MrSmitty]

Thanks for the comments and support but I don't feel its worth my time to argue with these people. Just not worth the effort cause nothing I will tell them will change their mind so why waste the time.

 

[Bravo]

Understood well!

There are trolls like that everywhere. They don't know what they don't know (or they don't know what they're NOT experts on in many cases) and can't be educated. And they refuse to educate themselves.

I've even run into it here.

Yeah, not worth the time or effort. Let 'em revel in their "wisdom", like that horse dragged to the water but is still thirsty.

On the good side though, you now have the makings of a list: title it "loud, ignorant people" ;D

 

[SIGFORALL]

How many Sig rifles stopped working during your Gunsite and Swat courses?

 

[DSM]

Crazy people I say. I get it at the range when I bring the XCR. The "AR King" will turn to his buddy and say how crappy they are, etc, etc. When they're finally curious enough to check it out the opinion always comes out eventually. When I ask how long they had theirs they get defensive and talk about reviews or some unknown person and then it gets quiet, real quiet. I tell them I've had way less trouble with this rifle than other I've owned and that maybe someone might be nice enough to let them shoot a few mags. Then I ignore them and go back to whatever I was doing.

 

[Bravo]

None - it appears they're neither issued by departments nor utilized by energetic ameteurs.

My comments weren't directed at the Sig for reliability (for which I have no basis to make comment) - but on the matter of ergonomics.

In other words, even if the Sig were as reliable as the XCR (and I believe that to be the case, for the most part) I'd still pick the XCR after running some hard drills. Ergonomics are a significant contributor to ease and capability of rapidly performing drills that keep one in the fight.

Good example: the HK91 is wonderfully reliable. The ergonomics suck. When I felt the need to get rid of a battlerifle, the HK was the first to go. How reliable a weapon is, is only one aspect - and not necessarily the biggest.

 

[SuperRage]

Its funny how people seem to tend towards putting others down and their choices. Instead of looking and respecting the others preference, they put down and criticize in an attempt to validate their own preference.

 

[dont_tread_on_me]

Bravo I agree on the HK ergo's.I have a PTR-91 that's amazingly accurate for this type of rifle,but I detest the magazine release,and the lack of a bolt hold open/release.That said,I knew all this before I bought it and I still love the rifle,nor would I be afraid to take it into harms way,but it would be nice to have AR ergo's on it. ;D

 

[wristlock]

I suppose I have a different view on weapons than most people and I don't get too emotionally attached.

A firearm is a projectile launching tool. We all want the projectile to launch and hit what we want it to.
Training, even a small amount, allows us to do this.

It took me a year before I could stand the look of an XD pistol. All of its features are what sold me on my first one. I shoot these so well that I bought another one. If you have a gun you shoot well, then LIKE that gun. But don't put me down if you like something different.

The XCR was visually appealing to me from the start. I saw it as what the M4 is trying to became. Why should I wait on an AR platform or buy something that is the better AK?

I am not putting anyone down. Just stating my view of guns.

 

[MrSmitty]

I suppose I have a different view on weapons than most people and I don't get too emotionally attached.

A firearm is a projectile launching tool. We all want the projectile to launch and hit what we want it to.
Training, even a small amount, allows us to do this.

It took me a year before I could stand the look of an XD pistol. All of its features are what sold me on my first one. I shoot these so well that I bought another one. If you have a gun you shoot well, then LIKE that gun. But don't put me down if you like something different.

The XCR was visually appealing to me from the start. I saw it as what the M4 is trying to became. Why should I wait on an AR platform or buy something that is the better AK?

I am not putting anyone down. Just stating my view of guns.

Nothing wrong with your view on the subject infact I would say its a very good view to take. It was a subjective view what I was stating when I was listing strong points of both systems. Some people just think its time to bash someone if they see an advantage of one system over another if it doesn't fit their opinion even if their opinion is an ignorant one. Pretty pathetic if you ask me.