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Let’s get one thing straight. Lots of propaganda and excuse making from Putin and those supporting him.

Bio labs? Proof? Why would you be bombing cities if you knew where they are?
This is flat out Russia imperialism. Many times Putin has said that he is wants the borders of the old USSR restored and that it was a terrible thing that they were reduced.

Crimea was a test planned from at least 2007 possibly earlier ( Russians are long range planners) His logic was/is if I can annex Crimea on a false pretense without too much blow back, then we can move to step one ( destabilize The Donbas very normal Soviet tactic) with this destabilization we can ride into Ukraine as the saving heroes. We regain Ukraine suffer sanctions and a lot of whining from spineless Western leaders.

So he waits until we have a weak spineless president and annexes Crimea. What does he get? Some sanctions and a lot of whining from the West.

Step two agents provocateurs already in Donbas stir the pot and start and promote discord and violent actions necessitating Ukraine center all government to act. As I said often used Soviet tactic.

Crimea annexed, Donbas destabilized, when to move in Ukraine and what excuses to use? Ah genocide ( no proof) criminals in power failed state) did he happen to look at his own government? Believe me payola is a way of life in Russia).

We have another spineless less than useless individual in the White House so he makes up his back story as well as his excuses and move to “ liberate” Ukraine.

One small problem Ukraine does not want to be “ liberated” by the way Russian troops weren’t welcomed in the Donbas either.

So now the bear has a problem things are going as planned, the sanctions are bigger than anticipated. So he threatens that which even as he says it knows if it occurred it would be the end of Russia. Bluff. His second bluff is about a no fly zone again bluff as there is not a lot he can do about it.

Time to step and push the rat into the corner, yet leave him an out and see which way he jumps.


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I think this is largely correct, but it seems that Ukraine is playing the pawn in the game between the West and Russia. It would appear the current government in Ukraine is as corrupt as our own and Russia's and the people of Ukraine are now paying the price for all the backdoor deals with Washington and the EU on one end and Russia on the other.

Hard to know what side or what 'facts' to believe in this propaganda war. Have the Russians really botched this invasion as much as the Western media is saying or are they crushing the Ukrainian opposition as they claim?
 
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Discussion Starter · #62 ·
Bio labs? Proof?
Sworn testimony before the Senate from a State Department official seems fairly suggestive. If there were no bio labs at all, why would Nuland have told the Senate (under oath) that there were?

That doesn't excuse Russia's invasion. And it doesn't change the fact that the average person in the Ukraine had nothing to do with this. But it does make you wonder what other tidbits the State Department knows that it's keeping under wraps.
 

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Sworn testimony before the Senate from a State Department official seems fairly suggestive. If there were no bio labs at all, why would Nuland have told the Senate (under oath) that there were?

That doesn't excuse Russia's invasion. And it doesn't change the fact that the average person in the Ukraine had nothing to do with this. But it does make you wonder what other tidbits the State Department knows that it's keeping under wraps.
US-Funded Bio Labs in Ukraine Conducted Research Into Bat Coronavirus, Russian MoD Says - Global Times
 

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Not sure how much stock should be placed in the Russian MoD for accurate information though. For me, I'm leery of my own confirmation bias considering what I believe to be the source of COVID....that it came from WIV and Fauci/CDC indirectly funded it (or something very similar) through EcoHealth Alliance. B/c of that, I wouldn't be shocked at all to find the USG involved in other risky bioweapons type research in Ukraine. To what level that rose is questionable on many levels....from who authorized it, to how virulent were the strains tested, to funding, etc.

The fact that any nation is at all involved in biological weapons at this point in human history seems incredibly stupid and unconscionable.
 
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Not sure how much stock should be placed in the Russian MoD for accurate information though. For me, I'm leery of my own confirmation bias considering what I believe to be the source of COVID....that it came from WIV and Fauci/CDC indirectly funded it (or something very similar) through EcoHealth Alliance. B/c of that, I wouldn't be shocked at all to find the USG involved in other risky bioweapons type research in Ukraine. To what level that rose is questionable on many levels....from who authorized it, to how virulent were the strains tested, to funding, etc.

The fact that any nation is at all involved in biological weapons at this point in human history seems incredibly stupid and unconscionable.
I agree with you on this.
I'm more interested in this part.


The Russian Defence Ministry will soon publish the documents received from staff at the Ukrainian biolaboratories, as well as the results of their examination, Konashenkov said.

On 7 March, the Russian armed forces discovered 30 biological compounds in Ukraine, which were possibly involved in the production of bio weapons, according to the head of the radiation, chemical and biological defence of the Russian armed forces Igor Kirillov.

The Russian MoD noted the United States spent more than $200 million on the work of biological laboratories in Ukraine - the laboratories of the central sanitary and epidemiological directorate of the Ukrainian Defence Ministry participated in the US military biological programme.


I trust the Russian MoD as much as the propaganda coming from western media, I'm just looking for more information and surprisingly western media isn't covering this much.
 

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I think this is largely correct, but it seems that Ukraine is playing the pawn in the game between the West and Russia. It would appear the current government in Ukraine is as corrupt as our own and Russia's and the people of Ukraine are now paying the price for all the backdoor deals with Washington and the EU on one end and Russia on the other.

Hard to know what side or what 'facts' to believe in this propaganda war. Have the Russians really botched this invasion as much as the Western media is saying or are they crushing the Ukrainian opposition as they claim?
I think the people are the pawns, their government it seems is just as corrupt as ours and playing a dangerous game with Russia.
Since the fall of the Soviet Union we have been slowly encircling Russia even though we gave the assurances we would not.
Russia's got a point: The U.S. broke a NATO promise - Los Angeles Times (latimes.com)

We have gone way father east of Germany and are trying to put missiles on Russia's front porch.
We have turned our focus to Ukraine and destabilized the country and put a new regime in place. Russia has seen this exact same game plan playout and knows what's coming. I don't think the Orange Revolution was organic at all, not saying the average citizen is to blame at all but when the US, UK, and EU gets involved it's usually bad for the citizens.

Soros Helped Known Actor/Comedian Volodymyr Zelensky Become President of Ukraine by Brainwashing the Country [VIDEO] | The Liberty Beacon

US staged a coup in Ukraine – here’s why and how - NationofChange

I believe the Western Governments have been planning a "regime change" in Russia for years but aren't quite ready yet they still need a few more pieces in place. I believe Putin and Russia knows this and that's why they wanted legally binding agreements the Ukraine would never become a member of NATO or host US missiles on their soil.
Within the last 2 months Russia has told the US and NATO their concerns in person and writing and were dismissed out of hand. Putin had said if they were dismissed he would have to take military actions to defend Russia. Russian resources are huge oil, steel, fertilizer, rare earth minerals ect.

Since the fall of the Soviet Union how many countries has Russia attacked, invaded or forced a regime change upon compared the US? Now all we hear is Russia is going to rebuild the old Soviet Empire but recent history doesn't seem to justify this rhetoric.
We have already declared war on Russia and they have so far not retaliated, our stated goal with our sanctions is to destroy their economy, that itself is an act of war

As for the last paragraph of your comment it is my belief that Russia only wants to remove the Ukrainian Government and demilitarize the country and remove any Nazi/fascists they believe are in country. Are their Nazi's there? The Azov Battalion has a unique history and their helmets and uniforms have symbiology that is very close to that of Nazis and coincidently were the battalion responsible for the Donbas Region.
I think the Russian army has tried to be careful to not target civilians and this has slowed them down and it still appears that they have not sent in most of their troops that were built up. From what western media has shown in regards to destroyed Russian equipment none of it seems to be their newer advanced equipment, none of their newest tanks have been shown and since their older stuff is the same as Ukraine who knows which side they are showing. I'm pretty sure they destroyed the majority of the Ukraine military within the first 2 days as there were Russian helicopters over Ukrainian cities on day 2 of the invasion seemingly unopposed.
 

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I agree with you on this.
I'm more interested in this part.


The Russian Defence Ministry will soon publish the documents received from staff at the Ukrainian biolaboratories, as well as the results of their examination, Konashenkov said.

On 7 March, the Russian armed forces discovered 30 biological compounds in Ukraine, which were possibly involved in the production of bio weapons, according to the head of the radiation, chemical and biological defence of the Russian armed forces Igor Kirillov.

The Russian MoD noted the United States spent more than $200 million on the work of biological laboratories in Ukraine - the laboratories of the central sanitary and epidemiological directorate of the Ukrainian Defence Ministry participated in the US military biological programme.


I trust the Russian MoD as much as the propaganda coming from western media, I'm just looking for more information and surprisingly western media isn't covering this much.
Although it's not surprising....the West was in full denial mode until the Undersecretary told the truth. No telling if the alleged documents aren't forgeries either.
 
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Not sure how much stock should be placed in the Russian MoD for accurate information though. For me, I'm leery of my own confirmation bias considering what I believe to be the source of COVID....that it came from WIV and Fauci/CDC indirectly funded it (or something very similar) through EcoHealth Alliance. B/c of that, I wouldn't be shocked at all to find the USG involved in other risky bioweapons type research in Ukraine. To what level that rose is questionable on many levels....from who authorized it, to how virulent were the strains tested, to funding, etc.

The fact that any nation is at all involved in biological weapons at this point in human history seems incredibly stupid and unconscionable.
This is new today

 

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Discussion Starter · #69 ·
I think the people are the pawns, their government it seems is just as corrupt as ours and playing a dangerous game with Russia.
I think that's true. But I also think that the Russian government is far more corrupt than either the US government or the Ukrainian government. I would actually rate the Ukrainian government as substantially more corrupt than the US government.

This is not a case of identifying the 'good guys'. There are none. This is about what options are less bad than the others.
 

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Discussion Starter · #70 ·
This is new today
I read through that and I'm still not at all convinced that Covid was developed in the Ukraine.

I am, however, very convinced that the US government is funding overseas research that would be illegal in the US, and has been doing so for many years. I would definitely believe that some of that research is happening in the Ukraine.

That still doesn't justify a Russian invasion, though. The Ukrainian people are basically getting punished for the machinations of their own and other governments.


Plus, why are you putting those research activities on foreign soil in what is likely to become hostile territory? Is that just an artifice to shift blame and/or give you a justification for military action in the future? "Look, the Chinese are developing bio weapons (at our behest and with our funding), we need to attack them..."
 

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I think that's true. But I also think that the Russian government is far more corrupt than either the US government or the Ukrainian government. I would actually rate the Ukrainian government as substantially more corrupt than the US government.

This is not a case of identifying the 'good guys'. There are none. This is about what options are less bad than the others.
I'm not trying to identify the good guys either what I'm tired of is that zelensky and his government being put out as being absolute victims by the media when I don't believe that they are. There are no good guys in this situation all three of the governments that you mentioned are corrupt. I guess history will be the judge of which of the three is the worst.

My fear is we are on the verge of a hot War between the US and Russia over Ukraine which I believe we should stay out of. I feel bad for the average Ukrainian citizen but this is between them and Russia. Just as I feel bad for the average US citizen when all the discourse that we have sewn into the world comes home to roost.
 
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Discussion Starter · #74 ·
I'm not trying to identify the good guys either what I'm tired of is that zelensky and his government being put out as being absolute victims by the media when I don't believe that they are.
War, by it's nature, tends to obscure nuance. Almost everyone feels a need to categorize the sides into 'us' and 'them' and then proceed to absolutely vilify 'them' while praising the 'us' side as perfect angels. We can definitely see that happening here (and in almost every other war, ever).
 

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Discussion Starter · #75 ·

My best guess would be that this was a non-government Ukrainian group trying to get NATO riled up. I would doubt there was a real bomb on this thing--probably just some random pieces to make it look that way. That's a total guess though. It could easily have been either side, and anything from a legitimate malfunction to a false flag. My second guess would be that this was the Russians trying to make it look like the Ukrainians were trying to rile up NATO.

Definitely a mess over there.

Anyone have any thoughts on whether this expands (beyond Moldova, which I think is a foregone conclusion)? My guess would be the Russians will not directly attack any NATO member states, and we will see a long term occupation/insurgency, with the Russian leadership counting on using Cold War style civilian repression to maintain control, which is likely to be a win for them.

I'm no fan of the Biden Administration, but I think if I was running US foreign policy I'd be doing just about the same things they are--funneling aid to the Ukrainians, pushing sanctions, and otherwise doing just about everything I could that did not involved direct NATO military action.

I was also no fan of the Trump administration, but I don't think this would have happened during the Trump presidency. This seems like a traditional Neo-con foreign policy misadventure, of the type which has marked every single US presidency since WWII except the Trump administration (the first president to really turn away from the Neo-con hawk control of foreign policy).
 

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Discussion Starter · #77 ·
What do you guys think of the Biden administration's announcement that they will not give long range rockets to Ukraine?

It seems like Biden is being intimidated by Putin, and caving in. Even if the US is not going to give Ukraine those missiles, I see no reason to make such a public announcement. And without long range missiles, the Ukrainians have no real chance. The Russians are just setting up defensive lines around cities and then leveling them with rocket attacks from outside the range the Ukrainians can reach. It looks likely this will just be a slow grinding advance, resulting in the almost total destruction (and ethnic cleansing) of the areas taken.

I'm surprised, appalled, and impressed by the audacity of using this kind of 'weaponized colonization' in modern Europe. The Russians are using Stalin's playbook from the Holodomor.
 

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What do you guys think of the Biden administration's announcement that they will not give long range rockets to Ukraine?

It seems like Biden is being intimidated by Putin, and caving in. Even if the US is not going to give Ukraine those missiles, I see no reason to make such a public announcement. And without long range missiles, the Ukrainians have no real chance. The Russians are just setting up defensive lines around cities and then leveling them with rocket attacks from outside the range the Ukrainians can reach. It looks likely this will just be a slow grinding advance, resulting in the almost total destruction (and ethnic cleansing) of the areas taken.

I'm surprised, appalled, and impressed by the audacity of using this kind of 'weaponized colonization' in modern Europe. The Russians are using Stalin's playbook from the Holodomor.
I find it telling how incredibly wrong 'western experts' have been about Russia's ability to wage war. At first there were all these predictions that Putin could only sustain combat operations for 10 days, then 3 weeks....we're what?....97 days in now, with no signs of stopping? What a bunch of fucktards. Underestimating your enemy is folly....and that seems to be the SOP for the western world now. Their miscalculated air of superiority is just a battle away from being dispelled as the myth it most likely is....especially as Obama and Biden both have done their damnedest to drum out our biggest military asset (good leaders and men) as well as eviscerating our military readiness.

Yeah, why Biden's team (he's obviously not running the show...but whoever is also can't control what the senile old bastard is going to say in public either) would make public that announcement is a mystery. Why would you telegraph your punches in this sort of fight? Makes zero sense.

It is shocking how stupid human beings are and "while history doesn't exactly repeat itself, if often rhymes". You'd think after the mantras of "Never again" from WWII....that Europe as a whole would have learned its lesson....but apparently, once a few generations pass...."never again" is forgotten.
 
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