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Discussion Starter · #1 ·

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The only question is why haven't you done it yet??

The XCR begs to be shorter, it just looks too long. I didn't notice much difference in groups between 50 and 100 yards with my 11" 5.56. It removes a little weight from the front of the rifle, most will admit that the XCR is weight biased towards the buisness end. I honestly can't think of any reasons not to, unless you are hunting something out past 200-300 meters or so. After SBRing my XCR and an AR at the same time I can't believe I waited so long to do it. Now I am looking through the safe to see what else I can SBR.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Please don't take this the wrong way but......Ummmm.you mean besides the $200 per bullshit tax,the lets jump on the B.A.T.F.E. radar,the shitty velocity loss,I could go on but I want to see a good reason to do it for all the trouble involved.Aesthetics are kool and everything,but the tradeoff isn't worth the looks to me.That's why I asked was to get a really GOOD reason.
I have nothing to hide,but my little meager collection might constitute an arsenal in some asshole government employee's mind and decide they need to pay me a visit in the middle of the night with one of their little patriot(what a hypocritical name!)act bullshit warrentless searches in their ninja suits and mp5's.Being woken up not knowing wtf is going on I might start shooting mfer's and either wind up dead or prosecuted in federal court for legally trying to defend myself.
This may seem like a hyperbolic scenario,but let me tell ya boys-n-girls,bad shit happens to good people everyday.Just a few happy thoughts for everyone. ;D Don't we all just love what big Uncle Sam has became!!




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M193 will still fragment reliably out to 45 meters with an 11.5 inch barrel. Also there are specialty rounds of various weight that will fragment out even farther. Even without fragmentation the round can still be very effective with good shot placement.

If you are using your XCR as your home defense weapon then SBRing would be well worth it, I think. If you don't care about the better handling and looks of it then I guess the answer would be no, don't SBR it.
 

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Ok, I guess I should have said that other than looking right, it handles better, is lighter, and in my experience, had negligable loss of velocity (150-300FPS) over my chrono using my reloads.

What do you use your XCR for? If you take it to the range, place it on a sandbag, shoot and go home then leave it the way it came. If it is called upon for defensive duties in your home or you use it for hunting in the thick woods (Georgia pig hunting for me) then the SBR may be the way to go.

I agree that the tax is BS, but after carrying an M16A2 in OIF1 then getting an M4 it was a no brainer to me. Shorter was better (in my case).

I haven't shot more than 100m with me SBR but as I said, The group didn't open up that much from 16" to 11".
 

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I have one SBR; a 10.5 AR15. Other than the barrel, everything about the upper is M4 spec. Think M4 milspec barrel cut to 10.5.

The major advantage is maneuverability... that is it. In my opinion it is not significantly lighter than the same rifle with a 14.5-16" barrel. My 10.5 with an Aimpoint and KAC handguards is noticeably heavier than my KISS 16" rifle. Then the downsides are:

-$200 tax
-Additional waiting time to have a complete rifle after discovering what your serial number will be
-Got to ship the lower off for engraving
-Jump through all paperwork legal hoops
-Less velocity
-Got to file paperwork to take the rifle out of state, and got to make sure it is legal in any state to which you wish to take it.
-Got to file paperwork if you move

I would really like to take mine down into GA to shoot with a buddy of mine, but never have enough notice to file the paperwork ahead of time. I've also got to be careful about my driving routes when going to ranges near a state border. I was kicking around the idea of going to a Blackwater class early next year. I would have to file the paperwork pretty soon just to make sure it goes through in time. They actually did turn my form around pretty quick when I moved, but I don't know if that is standard or not.

So yeah, it is a pain in the ass. The first one is the most difficult since you have to design your process from scratch. If I wanted to do a second one now, it would be a pretty simple matter of just sending off the form and waiting (you can engrave while you wait, if you are confident in your process/think you will get approved).

The XCR would probably be the most likely candidate if I wanted to do a second one right now, but frankly I don't want the hassle associated with moving it. One thing I'm not clear on, is, if you have an SBR registered lower, but put on an upper/barrel that is 16", can you move it freely without the paperwork? If I found that to be possible, it would put me a lot closer to possibly SBRing the XCR, since I could just put on the existing barrel to take it shooting out of state. If that can't be done, I will probably never bother with it unless I end up with a second dedicated XCR to SBR one day.
 

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If I recall correctly, to de-register an SBR takes a letter to the ATF stating it is no longer an SBR. I don't think anything needed returned paperwork wise. I recall reading a post elsewhere about a person that moved to a non-SBR friendly state.

Keeping registered as an SBR, but without the shorter barrel, as long as you made no mention of it being registered as such I wouldn't think it would matter in the eyes of John Q. Law. But since it is still registered as such it would be considered an NFA weapon.
 

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The question of whether or not it is still an SBR when changing uppers (from say 10.5" to 16") is moot.

According to everything I've ever read - YES - a registered SBR receiver is still a registered SBR receiver once the BATFE processes your paperwork and you are approved - no matter what upper you install... (keeping in mind that you must state the actual barrel length of the weapon on your Form 4 - Box 4e).

However, I have done considerable research based upon my own self-motivated scenarios (like travel to Knob Creek for the machine gun shoot) and am unable to find ANYTHING concrete on either the BATFE website or numerous other forums that support you being able to INCREASE the barrel length of the upper unless you are making a permanent change, and for which you must notify the BATFE in writing of your intent.

There are hundreds if not thousands of threads where folks ask the opposite question:

"Can I have a legal length rifle (16"+) AND a registered SBR lower AND multiple SBR uppers and not break the NFA law?"

The predominant short answer is NO - citing "intent" as the means of prosecution by BATFE under NFA regulations.

Logic would dictate that installation of a legal (16"+) upper makes it once again a legal weapon to possess and transport in (most) states - BUT until some sort of definitive answer is provided by BATFE (in writing), I'm inclined to not try and press my luck.

I have both a SBR (10.5" LMT) and a RRA AR15. I built the SBR specifically to install my AAC Ranger (semi-permanent) suppressor. I did this because I have an AAC M4-2000 Mod8 on my RRA Entry Tactical with standard 16" barrel and it is LONG... and a bear to handle any place other than the range.

So I agree with AZ and SHOGUN on many aspects of better handling, etc - but respect the opinion of NY when it comes to hassle factor.

I am looking to do another SBR - this time specific to a .22LR conversion - AND integrally suppressed.

I really don't plan on travelling with the SBR, so it appears that my needs differ from yours.

Regardless, why not just buy an SBR direct from RobArm and eliminate at least a portion of the aggravation?

Do I like the SBR - hell yes!

Would I do it again - hell yes!

Hope this helps provide another perspective to you.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I appreciate the better handing quality if I were doing tactical entry for a living.It would be nice to just be able to register the barrel so you(in theory)could install it on multiple weapons.
The only way I would ever do it would be to have a longer spare barrel for hunting or general use,and the short barrel for home defense,if I felt the need.It's hard for me to wrap myself around this idea when it's so much bs involved for so little gain.
If I ever were to do it,it would be in 7.62 or 6.5,Don't get me wrong,I don't want to get shot at length of hallway distances(or at all) with a 5.56,but if the mfer needs shootin' I'm gonna do it right damnit. ;D Everyone's needs,or perceived needs differ,so do what you feel you must.I thank everyone for giving their opinions.



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SBR's are fun. No doubt about it. Plus they are lighter, balance better, and more practical for civilian use.

The loss of velocity is a non-issue for civilians. We have much better self defense rounds to choose from which negate the loss of velocity. Regardless of what you read on AR15, short barrels do not impede your ability to defend yourself.

The one true downer is SBR's are LOUD! Outdoors, not a big deal. Indoors, it really sucks.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
That brings up another valid point,sbr's without a can will DEAFEN you if fired indoors.So you go through all the bs to get a can,then you hang that on the end of your nice Short little barrel bringing the length back up to,or exceeding the original.I know it won't be as loud,but how much practical benefit vs the cost and aggravation of all the N.F.A mod's.It just ain't worth it for personal use to me.Others needs will vary.



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I would really like to take mine down into GA to shoot with a buddy of mine, but never have enough notice to file the paperwork ahead of time. I've also got to be careful about my driving routes when going to ranges near a state border. I was kicking around the idea of going to a Blackwater class early next year. I would have to file the paperwork pretty soon just to make sure it goes through in time. They actually did turn my form around pretty quick when I moved, but I don't know if that is standard or not.
NY, you can complete the paperwork for a year at a time for ranges that you want to visit. If you habitually travel to GA and AZ to shoot you can put both range addresses down on the form and apply for a year. You just have to renew it every year.

I will admit that I think the hassle part is stupid, especially since you don't have to do that for cans.

Don't Tread, yes, adding a can usually increases the length back to factory but think about how long it would be if it wasn't an SBR. I have 2 right now and will probably get 2 more, one for a dedicated 9mm and one for a 22, though I don;t know if it will be a GSG-5 or a ST/Larue .22 on an AR.

I don't shoot much indoors but even outside my 6.8SPC SBR is LOUD.

Lastly, as Red said, Once a registered NFA item, always a registered NFA item (unless you send a letter asking the weapon to be removed as you are going to add a legal length barrel permanently).
 

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is there a difference in how you report barrel length and overall length on the nfa paperwork for the xcr since the barrels are detachable?

do you just put 'various' in the boxes?
 

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Magik, that question is best asked of the BATFE - but as far as I know - you have to be specific on barrel length and cannot generalize an entry in Box 4e. The way I understand it - this is so folks do not have multiple SBR uppers or barrels mixed with non-NFA lowers so as to avoid the legal issue of "intent" to assemble an illegal NFA firearm. You have to specify barrel length in Box 4e and overall length in Box 4f.

I believe that the only "general" statement they will accept on a Form 4 is in Box 15 where you state:

"I, John Q. Public, have a reasonable necessity to possess the machinegun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun, or destructive device described on this application for the following reason(s) [and this is where you may insert -- 'for all lawful purposes'] and my possession of the device or weapon wuld be consistent with public safety (18 U.S.C. 922(b) (4) and 27 CFR 478.98)."

Since virtually all barrels are detachable - I believe they simply want you to report it accurately.

We need a lawyer versed in federal regulations on this forum! ;D
 

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Ah, the barrel length question. From my research (I didn't call the BATFE but spoke to lots of peope that have been doing NFA for years) the BATFE only really cares about your shortest barrel and permanent modifications. I listed my barrel length as 11" and was told that I would be fine to put a 14.5 or 16" back on. If I sell my 11" barrel and decide to use 14.5" then I should write a letter to the BATFE so that they know I don't intend to use a 11" anymore.

The problem with calling them directly to get info is you get 2 answers from 2 different people.

Not really a general statement but in block 4h I put "Alt Cal. 6.8SPC, 11", 29"; 7.62x39, 11", 29"; .22, 11", 29." You can list as many barrel lengths as you want and always send them a letter with updates. It seems like most people advised to list the shortest barrel you intend to use and leave that one on there the majority of the time.

These blocks are from a Form 1.

I know it is a convoluted system, Do your research.
 

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Ya see... just like AZ pointed out... different people - different answers!

Hell, I have an aunt that works at the BATFE office in Martinsburg, WV and I can't get a consistent answer through her either!

I'm gonna hijack this thread for a brief exchange...

AZ - that was a bad deal on the CH-47 that went down, and we lost more brave men. What's the word on cause? No one is reporting here.
 

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Ya see... just like AZ pointed out... different people - different answers!

Hell, I have an aunt that works at the BATFE office in Martinsburg, WV and I can't get a consistent answer through her either!

I'm gonna hijack this thread for a brief exchange...

AZ - that was a bad deal on the CH-47 that went down, and we lost more brave men. What's the word on cause? No one is reporting here.
The ATF has a set of baseline rules open to a slew of different opinions and answers depending on which ATF agent you ask.

Mostly I think this is because there are too many "what ifs" and "technicalities" people will try and take advantage of

The other reason is because the ATF is run by the fed...nuff said.
 

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Ya see... just like AZ pointed out... different people - different answers!

Hell, I have an aunt that works at the BATFE office in Martinsburg, WV and I can't get a consistent answer through her either!

I'm gonna hijack this thread for a brief exchange...

AZ - that was a bad deal on the CH-47 that went down, and we lost more brave men. What's the word on cause? No one is reporting here.
Yeah, you never get a straight answer from anyone there.

As for the Hook, no word yet but it sucks. Guys just got to country, from the TX/OK NG.
 

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