[RC20]

As I said, I am opening this up for any discusion you want on triggers.

Its not a vote. If you want to vote on single stage trigger, go to the Rosinsha Arms section. As the standard is the two stage, the vote there is only for those wanting a single stage, so that RA has some idea of how popular that option is and can decide if its worht putting hte time and money into it (Alex offered to consider it).

So, starting this off someone insterted an opinion (actualy severl) in that which were not votes.
One said tht curretn was not a two stage trigger. I say balderdash.

It has the take up before you hit the main sear, and then it releases. I am not arguing RA decision to go that route, its not my cup of tea, but it was Alex's decision to make and I respect that (keeping in mind that this was originally a combat rifle design, not a civilian AR market gun (oops, I mean semi auto sports market).

Now I have no problem with those who are used to and like the two stage trigger. I don't, I grew up shooting bolt action rifles that had a single stage trigger, and were consistent. I like it, I shoot it a lot better. If I don't want the gun to fire, I don't have my finger on the trigger.

There seems to be a lot of myth about the two stage. I think its simply a military safety issue, for non combat situations where you don't drop and set a weapon off (big difference in being in the woods and brushing something soft and knocking around in a truck or armored vehicle. And in all of this is the fact that those weapons are at least three burst, if not fully auotomcis. The consequences to an accident are severe.

Also, you will be doing a lot of patrol combat where you have your finger on the trigger, ready to shoot, but not for sure you are going to have to. I can see that working as a safety issue. You need quick reactions and the safety is going to be off.

For my use, no.

The most accurate one I ever shot was a target rifle with two triggers, one to set it, and the other a very fine low pressure trigger. That was for under total controlled indoor target range conditions.

The next best is the single stage (in my opinion)

So, this is where you get to rant and rave about triggers, chime in, have fun.

Personally I find the following a lot of nonsense.


quote:
The two-stage trigger groups offer a substantial enhancement of semi-automatic accuracy potential over factory single-stage triggers for AR-15 Series rifles.

The factory single stage trigger mechanism releases the hammer (firing the weapon) after a steady squeeze is applied by the trigger finger. This trigger squeeze requires steadily increasing pressure to overcome the sear spring and mechanical resistance. The "creep" inherent in the factory single stage trigger requires that the shooter take time to "walk" through the trigger pull and find the "let-off point" in order to achieve accurate fire. The two-stage trigger mechanism release the hammer (firing the weapon) after two distinct amounts of spring and mechanical resistance are overcome by the trigger finger. The Initial stage of resistance encountered with this design feels light and is relatively long - approximately I/8 of an inch. The second stage of resistance feels noticeably greater but is of very short duration. The result is an extremely predictable, consistent, "crisp" trigger pull; semi-automatic fire is both quicker and more accurate because the first stage is quickly overcome and the second stage is crisp and predictable. unquote

 

[tk]

I've never liked two-stage triggers, probably for the same reason you mention: My initiation to shooting was with target rifles tha used adjustable single-stage triggers.

But the dissatisfaction I've expressed in other posts with my XCR's trigger was not really related to it being a two-stage trigger, but to being a heavy, creepy, two-stage trigger. I did the set-screw trick described elsewhere on the site, and that really helped eliminate the creep.

I like light, crisp triggers, with tight reset on my guns, and I don't see ay reason why anyone would want anything else. I've put the short reset triggers in both of my SIG P226s and have done some other action work to get them just where I want them.


tk

 

[paetrw]

I'm in the military and I prefer a two stage trigger. You mentioned accidents and keeping your finger on the trigger during combat patrols. The truth is your weapon is on safe the entire time with your finger OUT of the trigger guard. This eliminates 99% of NDs.

 

[dont_tread_on_me]

I'm in the military and I prefer a two stage trigger. You mentioned accidents and keeping your finger on the trigger during combat patrols. The truth is your weapon is on safe the entire time with your finger OUT of the trigger guard. This eliminates 99% of NDs.

Well said.I don't think that safety is an equipment issue as much as an operator issue.That said,the purpose of the two stage in my opinion,is that during high stress fine motor skills tend to go out the window.You can overcome this somewhat with proper training,but it is still an issue.The idea that the trigger has same take-up or "creep" allows the operator to feel the trigger move before actually feeling the sear engagement,and/or breaking the shot.On a fighting rifle that will be used for CQB I don't believe a trigger should be any lighter than 4.5-5 pounds.It's not a target rifle,any lighter and you risk the loss of feel because of the stress induced by combat as mentioned earlier.

 

[aziator]

RC20, like paetrw said, weapons are always on safe with finger off trigger, even when on patrols. Most of the rifles in todays military are in fact 3 round burst at most (at least the M4 variety).

As far as single vs double, I am good shooting both. I think that traditionally the 2 stage is for target use. I am trying to remember but I don't think I have ever been issued an M16/M4 that had a 2 stage trigger. If they were a 2 stage they were worse than the XCR. Some units can order the Knights 2 stage for use when building a DMR type rifle.

I have a good friend of mine that does way more door kicking than I could hope to and he said stay away from a 2 stage in combat. He went through a course with some MARSOC types and said just about every rifle with a 2 stage broke during the 2 week/2K+ rounds fired. I am not sure what breaks on them but I wouldn't want that to happen.

l have a RRA 2 stage in one of my lowers and it feels real nice. It would do great on a varmint type gun but probably is overkill on a 10"upper gun. :2cents:

 

[DakPara]

Please allow me to state the reasons for my preference for a "really good" two stage with an example.

Lets say I want to make a well aimed shot at 100 yards totally offhand for the sake of illustration.

If I have (purely for example) a two-stage trigger with a four pound takeup stage and a five pound total sear break stage (one additional pound), as I am generally aiming the gun I can:

1. predictably remove all the take up with four pounds,
2. 1/2 exhale,
3. final aim and breath hold,
4. and smoothly squeeze the remaining trigger pull (just one more lb).

With this method, during the final trigger pull sequence, my finger is pretensioned at 4 lbs when I hit the actual sear release, which gives me a good portion of the advantage of a one lb trigger pull without the (I think we can all agree) dangers of a one pound single stage trigger in a field rifle.

Now -- when shooting prone, from a bipod, benchrest or any other pretty much fully braced position, a single stage is fine because the muzzle is not going to be wandering around as I go from zero to five pounds of trigger pull.

If you are good enough shooter that you can safely and consistently index a single-stage 5 pound trigger to four pounds and then make the final one lbs release, you are better than me.

I will also say that many military rifles have standard issue two-stage triggers, mine include M1, M1A, SR-25.

 

[dont_tread_on_me]

Topic Summary
Posted on: Today at 16:49Posted by: DakPara
Insert Quote
Please allow me to state the reasons for my preference for a "really good" two stage with an example.

Lets say I want to make a well aimed shot at 100 yards totally offhand for the sake of illustration.

If I have (purely for example) a two-stage trigger with a four pound takeup stage and a five pound total sear break stage (one additional pound), as I am generally aiming the gun I can:

1. predictably remove all the take up with four pounds,
2. 1/2 exhale,
3. final aim and breath hold,
4. and smoothly squeeze the remaining trigger pull (just one more lb).

With this method, during the final trigger pull sequence, my finger is pretensioned at 4 lbs when I hit the actual sear release, which gives me a good portion of the advantage of a one lb trigger pull without the (I think we can all agree) dangers of a one pound single stage trigger in a field rifle.

Now -- when shooting prone, from a bipod, benchrest or any other pretty much fully braced position, a single stage is fine because the muzzle is not going to be wandering around as I go from zero to five pounds of trigger pull.

If you are good enough shooter that you can safely and consistently index a single-stage 5 pound trigger to four pounds and then make the final one lbs release, you are better than me.

I will also say that many military rifles have standard issue two-stage triggers, mine include M1, M1A, SR-25.

Before I did my trigger job,my biggest gripe about the XCR trigger wasn't that it was a two stage as much as the fact that the first stage was too damn heavy to consistently feel the second stage at all from an offhand position.I'm with you in that I don't mind a good two stage as long as the first stage is light enough to actually feel like there ARE two Separate stages.I disagree some what about needing to stage the first stage so that I get it the aiming point(crosshair,dot etc.)where I want it to be.I think offhand shooting is more about timing than anything else.Everyone has crosshair wiggle offhand,the whole idea is to control your breathing so that you can break the shot at the precise moment when the crosshair is on the point on the target you want to hit.That to me,is why a good single stage is easier to do that with is because there is no creep or movement(in the trigger) before the shot break to either throw off timing or to induce any other movement to the rifle other than your own breathing muscle/bone structure is already imparting.That's target shooting.A fighting rifle is better(for me) to have a two stage much like you describe,because for me,That short first four pound take-up signals to my mind "hey dumbass your getting ready to shoot someone"!! That way it reinforces in my mind what I'm about to do,and IF I really want to do it or not.

 

[RC20]

To quote G&A article titled. The AR Gold Trigger System",

A sudden job, such dropping the rifle can cause an accidental discharge.

The Military answer to the problem is a two stage trigger.

I am pretty sure my brothers MP15 is two stage.

So, the question is, are two stage triggers standard Militarily equipment. I am looking at a very limited perspective obviously.

And, I do find it hard try believe that when combat is imminent, that the safety is not off with the trigger finger outside the guard at least, and Maybelle even on it. Call it human nature.

This also discountes someoen forgetting. I know one miltary person who suposedly had their gun cleared and had a roudn in it still and was found in the firign barrell.

I will do what researehc I can, but soemtimes they simply do not sya whats oviousl on detaisl like that.

 

[Bravo]

I am pretty sure my brothers MP15 is two stage.

According to the Navy's National Match team armorer, it's a single stage trigger with a slew of take-up. Since he's done a few trigger jobs (yes, I'm being silly) on everything from Garands to the M16 series, I feel confident he'd know the difference.

 

[Sean K.]

I had Bill Springfield do a trigger job on my first XCR......(I wasn't comfortable trying it and didn't have any of the tools/polishes/springs/stones necessary to do so which would have cost me close to the same to do anyway, so I let him do it).....it is FAR and AWAY a much better single stage feel trigger than the inconsistent, sometimes 2 stage some times not, factory XCR trigger in my 2nd rifle.

One thing I did to the first trigger was round the corner of the hammer like in the "Got Slap" thread. I don't know what slap is exactly to be completely honest, but I did notice that before I rounded that corner, trigger reset was extremely harsh...rounding it got rid of that harshness.

IMO, the factory 2 stage is really bad just b/c it's completely inconsistent on my 2nd rifle. My first one wasn't nearly this bad....it pretty much always felt like a 1 stage. The 2nd rifle though will have a definite 2 stages, but only at certain times and I can never tell when it's going to do it and when it will give me one pull.

Just my observations.

I say don't wait on the new trigger.....just have Bill work your's and then round the corner on the hammer to get rid of the "slap".....(assuming that's what I was feeling on reset).

Sean

 

[dont_tread_on_me]

If by "harsh" you mean it stung your finger when you shot it,then yep you "had slap"!....lol 8)

 

[rkmcdon]

I would like a good 2 stage trigger, but unfortunately that's not what you get with the xcr. I totally agree with the previous comment that it's a sometimes two stage, sometimes one stage trigger that is remarkable inconsistent. I won't say that it's like shooting a different trigger each time, but it's like shooting a different trigger each time. You never know if you're going to get a second stage or if the rifle is simply going to go off. If you're lucky, and take a long slow pull, you will intermittently get that second stage, but man it's like pulling teeth to get it because the first stage is WAY too heavy for that light second stage.

And i'm a +1 on trigger slap with my xcr. My break in was getting uncomfortable by the end of my second clip, thankfully by the end of 300 rounds i had lost almost all sensation in my trigger finger

I'll be sending my lower to Bill for a trigger job in the not too distant future.

As far as 2 stage vs 1 stage in general, I honestly like both. For general use, i have a small preference for single stage because it's what i've shot most, for sitting and punching holes in paper, i have a slight preference for two stage because it aids in my accuracy to take up that first stage, breath aim and then have a really light second stage. Overall though, i just prefer a good trigger in either style.

 

[RC20]

This certainly is a two stage trigger, no matter how bad. Its not slack you are taking up. I have take the gun apart and watched the mechanism move, and the whole cam is being moved on the first stage.

It is inconsistent, and sometimes it does not reset and the first stage is non existent but very heavy.

I don't want to send it to Bill because I don't want the gun to be gone, and shipping form Alaska to the lower 48 is expensive.

I am to the point I will take he improved two stage and then the single stage when it comes out.

And I linked up the following for what its worth.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=104768

 

[rkmcdon]

This certainly is a two stage trigger, no matter how bad. Its not slack you are taking up. I have take the gun apart and watched the mechanism move, and the whole cam is being moved on the first stage.

It is inconsistent, and sometimes it does not reset and the first stage is non existent but very heavy.

I don't want to send it to Bill because I don't want the gun to be gone, and shipping form Alaska to the lower 48 is expensive.

I am to the point I will take he improved two stage and then the single stage when it comes out.

And I linked up the following for what its worth.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=104768

I believe the comment about the sometimes two stage sometimes one stage refers to the fact that, on my gun at least, no matter how hard you try, sometimes there is no discernable second stage. And i'm talking bench resting the gun, holding a half breath and squeezing the trigger as slowly as i can over a 5-6 second period. Sometimes i would find a second stage, sometimes the gun would just fire. Others may have a consistently two stage trigger, but i unfortunately do not.

 

[Sean K.]

This certainly is a two stage trigger, no matter how bad. Its not slack you are taking up. I have take the gun apart and watched the mechanism move, and the whole cam is being moved on the first stage.

It is inconsistent, and sometimes it does not reset and the first stage is non existent but very heavy.

I don't want to send it to Bill because I don't want the gun to be gone, and shipping form Alaska to the lower 48 is expensive.

I am to the point I will take he improved two stage and then the single stage when it comes out.

And I linked up the following for what its worth.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=104768

I believe the comment about the sometimes two stage sometimes one stage refers to the fact that, on my gun at least, no matter how hard you try, sometimes there is no discernable second stage. And i'm talking bench resting the gun, holding a half breath and squeezing the trigger as slowly as i can over a 5-6 second period. Sometimes i would find a second stage, sometimes the gun would just fire. Others may have a consistently two stage trigger, but i unfortunately do not.

EXACTLY what I've experienced on my 2nd XCR's trigger (later serial number than the first....around 3700+ S/N).

Sometimes there's definitely two stages....others: it's just one long heavy pull.

Sean

 

[Sean K.]

If by "harsh" you mean it stung your finger when you shot it,then yep you "had slap"!....lol 8)

Not "stinging" exactly, but a definite metallic resonance in the trigger itself when dry firing, pulling back the charging handle and then letting the trigger reset.

After your mod, that harshness, slap or resonance, was significantly lessened. I didn't go crazy with it for fear of possibly screwing something up....but it made a marked difference....to the point where the "slap" was easily 1/2 or more reduced. Thanks SO much for the idea and the thread. ;D

I need to do the same to the 2nd XCR. I now have access to a little dremel with a sanding drum so I think I may try that. The first one I did with a file after Bill did his trigger job on my lower. In email correspondence, I linked him to your thread and he said his job would get rid of the slap....but when I got it back, it was just like it was when I sent it (with respect to the "slap".....everything else was VASTLY improved). So, I went ahead and did the DTOM mod. I'm happy to say, it worked flawlessly and like I said, I'll be doing it to my 2nd XCR shortly.

Thanks again DTOM!

Sean

 

[dont_tread_on_me]

Thanks,glad to help.You should be able to take more without fear of screwing it up,just don't go insane.I actually used a bench grinder to do mine.I simply rounded the corner,then cleaned it up a bit with a file and voila' no more bitten finger.

That crappy first stage you guys keep complaining about,well I'm with ya cuz is sucks.If you do the grip screw mod,it will completely remove it.The best part is that it's extremely simple to do.By replacing the factory grip screw with a set screw,you can adjust how much take up the first stage has.The first stage is also the heaviest,so you remove that heaviness out of the trigger manipulation by taking the strength of the hammer spring out of the equation.What that set screw does is penetrate the frame and touch/push up the tail of the trigger,in effect pre-staging it.If you combine that mod with simple polishing the sear/hammer engagement,you'll get one slick single stage trigger that breaks at about 5 pounds.Once you have the set screw prestaging set to your liking you threadlock it in place and put your grip back on.You may need to shorten the original screw so it doesn't bottom out.

 

[tk]

OK, so can someone explain what the difference is between a two-stage trigger and a "single-stage with a lot of take up?" What is the mechanism in a two stage doing during the first stage? And why is the XCR so inconsistent in this regard?

BTW: Just doing the set-screw trick was enough to get me by until the new trigger is out.


tk

 

[shane45]

Single, double, dont really care just want smooth and predictable. As my rifle sits right now its like having a corvette in the driveway with a mangled steering wheel!

 

[RC20]

OK, so can someone explain what the difference is between a two-stage trigger and a "single-stage with a lot of take up?" What is the mechanism in a two stage doing during the first stage? And why is the XCR so inconsistent in this regard?

BTW: Just doing the set-screw trick was enough to get me by until the new trigger is out.tk

Just my opinion, but you have triggers with a lot of take up, slack. Nothing is happening. Trigger moves some distance, no resistance.

Then you have a two stage there is resistance, then a stop, then pull harder and it trips the sear and fires. First stage is make parts move. Maybe even a better term would be pre cocks it.