[backto9]

When you lay the XCR on its side with the charging handle down it gets pushed in. While looking inside the reciever the piece that moves the operating system also moves inward. Does this serve a purpose? Is it bad if the spring no longer works?

Thanks, yes i have to much time on my hands ;D

 

[tacweapon]

My guess would be that the spring is part of the Forward Assist and it is bad that it no longer work just my guess.

 

[DSM]

Yep, forward assist, in case the bolt needs a litle extra help going into battery. If it's on your rifle it should work, so get it replaced, but it won't mena the rifle will fall apart the next time you use it.

Forward assists are OK to have but cramming a cartridge into battery if it won't go on its own can cause the problem at hand to get way worse. Seen some nasty troubles when troopers didn't do the "O" step in SPORTS!

 

[dont_tread_on_me]

I'll probably catch hell for this BUT here goes.A forward assist is the most learning impaired appendage ever built into a rifle.Rule number one,if the bolt on your weapon didn't go home on it's own,there is a reason.Meaning either A) operator error,riding the charging handle or B) theres something in the fucking WAY!.Now if you have stuff in the way how much sense does it make to FORCE it into the chamber.You are much better off doing a clearance drill,push/pull the magazine(NOT tap as in tap,rack,bang)then briskly pull the charging handle all the way rearward while tilting the weapon towards the ejection port side(make gravity work for you)then let go of the charging handle.
The reason I say don't tap the bottom of the mag is twofold.First is if you've had a double feed and your mag wasn't fully seated,your going to cram everything together tighter making the malfunction worse,and second most people hit it too hard possibly damaging the magazine release and forcing the magazine up and past the release as well causing alot more problems than the initial malfunction.
I'm not knocking the forward assist on the XCR as this was simply included to appease the many AR enthusiasts that think that it's necessary.One more thing,if the AR was the great beat all end all rifle that so many religiously believe it is it would never have needed it to begin with.

 

[aziator]

you wont catch hell, you said what I would have said, exactly. If the round isn't going in you don't "assist" it (I tried that once on a tranny install. It seemed tight so I "assisted it" by getting a couple bolts on it and tightening them. Sucked for that input shaft, tranny and my wallet). That is neither here nor there though.

 

[dont_tread_on_me]

ROFLMAO!! I did the same thing on an old 1974 Ford Torino,it had the old FMX transmission and the torque converter had to click three times while you worked it onto the back of the tranny well we didn't,but when we got it bolted back together and fired her up we found it had busted the hydraulic pump and the front seal was pouring the 20 bucks worth of tranny fluid(we had just put in it) right back out out onto the ground.Damn that sucked,that was a heavy S.O.B.Much heavier than a C4,and we didn't have a pit or a lift...lmao.I miss that old car.That fucker had metal in them parts!! We were hit while sitting at a stoplight by a chic driving a Chevrolet Cavalier,It scratched our bumper,wrinkled the front fender just a little and broke the marker light.It totaled her car. ;D The cop was like "damn you only hit THAT car? ....lmao

 

[Bravo]

The imediate action drill we were taught is simply push pull (shove the mag into the well hard, try to rip it out) and charge while rolling the rifle so that the ejection port is facing pretty much downward. The idea is that the rotational force, with the bolt retracted, will allow anything "bad" to fall out.

That takes care of 90% or better of the malfs.

If it doesn't, the action taken is remove the mag (and don't retain it), lock the bolt back, sweep the upper with your finger (to knock out double-feeds, and the XCR is heck on double feeds! It SLAMS the two rounds together - and before anyone asks, we "manufactured" double-feeds in order to practice clearing). Then run the bolt forward and backwards a couple of times, insert a fresh mag, and charge.

Forward assist? We always called it the "armorer call button". When you see someone punching on the forward assist (going back to the AR days), you KNOW you're about 20 seconds short of hearing an armorer call! HA!

 

[dont_tread_on_me]

Yea Bravo I think the first drill is an "immediate action" drill and the second one you describe is called a "remedial action" drill.Thanks for adding the other one,I guess I should have thrown that in there to.

 

[Whiskey three six]

Forward Assist as we know it today was a development in response user feed back from personnel of the 5th SFG (Viet Nam) and a need to "silently chamber a round of ammunition".
Double shame sticks on me for not saving the Patent information relating to its invention.

 

[wristlock]

I've used my forward assist once. I was intentionally riding the charging handle. I wanted to see how it worked.

I would think that the charging handle COULD cycle, during shooting, if your spring is not working.

 

[ExParatrooper]

I'll probably catch hell for this BUT here goes.A forward assist is the most learning impaired appendage ever built into a rifle.Rule number one,if the bolt on your weapon didn't go home on it's own,there is a reason.Meaning either A) operator error,riding the charging handle or B) theres something in the fucking WAY!.Now if you have stuff in the way how much sense doe it make to FORCE it into the chamber.You are much better off doing a clearance drill,push/pull the magazine(NOT tap as in tap,rack,bang)then briskly pull the charging handle all the way rearward while tilting the weapon towards the ejection port side(make gravity work for you)then let go of the charging handle.
The reason I say don't tap the bottom of the mag is twofold.First is if you've had a double feed and your mag wasn't fully seated,your going to cram everything together tighter making the malfunction worse,and second most people hit it too hard possibly damaging the magazine release and forcing the magazine up and past the release as well causing alot more problems than the initial malfunction.
I'm not knocking the forward assist on the XCR as this was simply included to appease the many AR enthusiasts that think that it's necessary.One more thing,if the AR was the great beat all end all rifle that so many religiously believe it is it would never have needed it to begin with.

Gonna play Devil's Advocate here, because I somewhat disagree.

The forward assist was designed to supplement rapid malfunction relief under combat conditions. What you describe may be the case for semi-auto varmint rifles or 90% of civilian black rifle owners. Most people that own these types of weapons have never even come close to shooting their weapon to near-failure, and probably never will. Most folks have never put so many rounds downrange in a single event that the carbon residue starts to close up the tolerances on the bolt face, lugs, and chamber. It does happen. Mud, dust, and debris can and will clog the chamber under adverse conditions. Using a forward assist to force the bolt into battery was a way to temporarily remedy these types of malfunctions on-the-fly.

Tapping the magazine applies for the same reason. Under fire, the last thing you are going to do is worry about bending your feed lips. Soldiers are frequently issued magazines that have worn or weakened springs and followers, allowing 31 or 32 rounds to be loaded. The back pressure on the follower or spring makes it damn near impossible to seat a magazine without tapping. It's not the ideal way to load a mag, but under certain conditions, "ideal" really is last priority.

Remember what these are, and what they are designed for. They are built beefy and to take abuse.

All this being said, I rarely witnessed other soldiers using the forward assist alot. I have had to use it more than once with blanks (5.56mm blanks suck anyway).

 

[aziator]

para, sent you an email

 

[Bravo]

The forward assist was designed to supplement rapid malfunction relief under combat conditions.

The main problem being that if the bolt doesn't close on the round with the first attempt, trying to hammer the bolt closed with the FA is a bad idea. As I mentioned before, you can tie the weapon up TIGHT by hitting the FA once or twice - the offending round gets wedged in there so tight it can't be pulled out with the charging handle.

This isn't something unique to the AR, it applies to all firearms. One of the guys I know had a round that didn't want to chamber in his M24. He used the "forward assist" - a boot heel on the bolt handle. Which would have worked perfectly, except Remington silver-solders the bolt handle to the bolt body on the M24 (700) and doesn't do all that good of a job at it sometimes. Which one is worse - having a bolt action with a round ALMOST locked in the chamber, cocked but can't be fired, and no attached bolt handle -OR- having to slide the upper forward off of the lower, just to get the AR disassembled to the point the offending round can be driven out with a cleaning rod?

BTDT.

Agreed on one thing though, 90% of the people who own black rifles won't ever get theirs that dirty.

But tapping the magazine (I'm assuming you're talking about doing so as part of a malfunction drill) doesn't have anything to do with feed lips - it has to do with the fact the vast majority of malfs on the AR series weapons comes from "not-quite" properly inserted mags. That's the entire reason we've gone to a "push-pull" magazine insertion. If the front sight doesn't dip, you don't have a mag in completely. That and we've been "pushed" to only load 28 rounds per mag, to prevent problems with closed-bolt reloads.

 

[backto9]

Oops, this one kinda got away

So to use the forward assist you have to push the charging handle in as you push forward?

Not to worry my spring is fine but i was just wondering as is gets pushed in when i case my weapon and I wanted to make sure im not hurting anything if the spring gets worn down eventually.

I agree with the not using a forward assist, unless your a super secret assassin and need to ride the bolt forward that is :sniper:

 

[ExParatrooper]

The forward assist was designed to supplement rapid malfunction relief under combat conditions.

The main problem being that if the bolt doesn't close on the round with the first attempt, trying to hammer the bolt closed with the FA is a bad idea. As I mentioned before, you can tie the weapon up TIGHT by hitting the FA once or twice - the offending round gets wedged in there so tight it can't be pulled out with the charging handle.

This isn't something unique to the AR, it applies to all firearms. One of the guys I know had a round that didn't want to chamber in his M24. He used the "forward assist" - a boot heel on the bolt handle. Which would have worked perfectly, except Remington silver-solders the bolt handle to the bolt body on the M24 (700) and doesn't do all that good of a job at it sometimes. Which one is worse - having a bolt action with a round ALMOST locked in the chamber, cocked but can't be fired, and no attached bolt handle -OR- having to slide the upper forward off of the lower, just to get the AR disassembled to the point the offending round can be driven out with a cleaning rod?

BTDT.

Agreed on one thing though, 90% of the people who own black rifles won't ever get theirs that dirty.

But tapping the magazine (I'm assuming you're talking about doing so as part of a malfunction drill) doesn't have anything to do with feed lips - it has to do with the fact the vast majority of malfs on the AR series weapons comes from "not-quite" properly inserted mags. That's the entire reason we've gone to a "push-pull" magazine insertion. If the front sight doesn't dip, you don't have a mag in completely. That and we've been "pushed" to only load 28 rounds per mag, to prevent problems with closed-bolt reloads.

I completely understand the points made here. I'm not saying that the FA is the pinnacle of technology, it is rather archaic. It's alot like "kicking" something to get it to work. All I'm saying is that it was designed to cure a very small percentage of feed problems on-the-go when sliding an upper off and having your weapon apart in the field will get you killed.

I still maintain that it does have its uses, but most people will never be in a situation to employ it for what it was designed for. For that reason it is misunderstood.

 

[dont_tread_on_me]

Backto9,My apologies if I hijacked your thread.To answer your question,yes you push in for the nub on the charging handle to engage the dimple in the bolt to be able to push it forward.It should not hurt the spring to be inside your case,if it does weaken in time however it is isn't an expensive part,nor difficult to replace I wouldn't think.
The point I was making is why take the time to "inspect" the rifle to see wether you can use the forward assist of not.If you don't look first you have the possibility of locking the rifle up tighter,because of what obstruction may be in the way.INSTEAD do an immediate action drill because A)You don't have to stop and look to see what the problem is,because B)this method is both faster and more effective at clearing probably 75% of weapon malfunctions.
My point about tapping the magazine was not bent feed lips either.It is that some people in the "excitement" of the moment get a little overzealous in their "tapping" and it winds up being a"SLAM" instead possibly resulting in A)broken parts or B) if the magazine wasn't fully seated and you've had a double feed,your just going to smash those two rounds alot tighter together than they already were,making a bad situtation a knee-deep-in-cow doody situation.

 

[wristlock]

So to use the forward assist you have to push the charging handle in as you push forward?

Yes. But first pull the charging handle back until it stops.
Then push in the knob and push forward.

There is a small cutout in the blt carrier about the size of a pencil eraser. This allows the forward assist to work. The raised portion is for the regular charging functions.

I agree with the idea of using the FA as the last ditch action to keep the gun in the fight. Well after IA and RA.

 

[SuperRage]

You guy are awesome! What a wealth of information and first hand, in-the-field knowledge. Good reading. Thanks!