XCR Forum banner

Wolf .223 won't cycle rifle at all/jams the bolt

18K views 126 replies 22 participants last post by  Sean K. 
#1 ·
This is my first real shooting-related problem I've had with the XCR. Was first shooting Remington UMC today. Shot 40 rounds with one failure to cycle properly, so I turned the gas setting up from 2 to 3 (I think this was the first failure I've ever had with my gun). Then I moved on to Wolf .223 62 gr. steel cased. This ammo won't cycle the weapon at all. I had the gas turned all the way up to 4. After the round was fired the bolt head would get stuck in the barrel extension. Manually trying to charge the handle would do nothing. Only "pogo-ing" the gun would let the empty cartridge get free of the weapon. This happened consistently with each new round. I opened up the rifle and litterally dowsed everything with Break-Free CLP, then tried again. Immediately after the gun fired about two rounds (shells ejecting very weakly about 1-2 feet out) then jammed up again. I tried with multiple mags with no difference. My XCR round count is about 700 now so it's past its "break in" period.

I know Wolf is low powered ammo, but it should at least cycle at full gas setting shouldn't it?
 
#2 ·
Did you try rounds from different boxes? May be a bad batch. Did you fire any other ammo type after that successfully?
 
#4 ·
could be a bad batch, agreed. How many rounds total are through the rifle? My XCR has run great without a single hiccup for around 7000 rounds, the only time I've had to turn it up to 4 was for a shitty batch of Wolf. The spent cases were plipping a couple feet out. Shoddiest stuff I've seen..
 
#5 ·
Simple solution....don't buy any more Wolf. None of my XCRs will eat it either. Lot number doesn't seem to matter as I've shot Wolf black box from 3 different lots with similar results. Oddly enough the 1K lot of Wolf Military Classic I put through the guns ran fine....but I wouldn't buy more based on the experiences with the other Wolf (black box).

Alex doesn't recommend Wolf and instead recommends Brown Bear....

Good luck.

Sean
 
#6 ·
I think the quality of all these are hit or miss with bad batches in probably all. After several PM's with DTOM discussing our conflicting results a while back, I have been trying more batches of all the brands in 223 and 7.62 except for those new white boxes marked hunting cartridges that someone posted about the other day. I have found that the quality varies from lot to lot on all this stuff.

Recommend that the OP try some factory brass ammo as first troubleshooting step and avoid reloads until you have current problem figured out.
 
#8 ·
I've seen bad boxes of wolf do that, the rim of the cartridge will get ripped off... however, this sounds like a typical bad gas block. I have dealt with (feels like)(actually no, I really have dealt with hundreds of these) . Now that Robinson stopped machining their own gas blocks, the problem ceased (mostly) Take a .454 gauge pin and if it fits in the top hole of the gas block, it's shit. Even if you have a bad gas block, sometimes you won't know until you shoot Wolf because it is pressured so low so measure it with the gauge pin to eliminate it from your list. I run mostly wolf and rarely have problems.
 
#10 ·
Finally, some good tech!!! :D Thanks for the info. At least I have something else to check.

For those that need the info.

16" 5.56 rifles should have a .070" bbl gas port and a .136" gas block port. The largest #4 gas dial port is .125".

9" 5.56 bbls should have a .086" bbl gas port.....gas block port is still .136" and #4 dial port is .125".

Anyone else notice that their dial ports become significantly clogged within a few hundred rounds?

JFYI.

Sean
 
#14 ·
Also, if you want to be more precise, get a 453 4535 and a 454 and see how close the tolerance is. One end could be larger than the other and if the 4535 can be rotated while inserted in the hole or otherwise feels loose, but the 454 doesn't quite go in, it is still technically out of spec and therefore problematic for ammo pressured towards the lower end.
 
#15 ·
Again: THANK YOU!!! Most helpful. We have a bunch of precision ground gauge pin sets at work. I'll have to get them out and see if that's a part of my problem.

Sean
 
G
#17 ·
Ghost, I think Gessepe has nailed it here. It does not sound like an ammo problem to me at all, it sounds like a gas delivery problem.

Remove your gas block and check for restrictions in the flow pathway and check what gessepe has said as well.
 
#21 ·
'splain me how this is a gas block problem. Some people can have the rim of the cartridge ripped off and the cartridge is still stuck in the chamber. It's obviously got enough gas pressure to drive the bolt back with such force that the extractor tears the rim off the cartridge, and still the case doesn't come out of the chamber. In this case it didn't rip the rim off the case but the case had to be pogoed out of the chamber. That's not normal right? Shouldn't you be able to turn the gas to 0 and use it like a bolt rifle? I don't think you have to pogo cartridges out of bolt guns do you? Why isn't this a chamber size/steel case/polymer/lacquer/carbon blow by problem? We've talked about these Wolf issues many times before and I promise not to say anything further, but bottom line is some guns just won't tolerate Wolf (or other steel cased) ammo. My Kel Tecs had to go to a gunsmith to get the case out of the chamber when I bent a brass rod trying to hammer it out.

Promise I won't say anything further.
 
G
#22 ·
it's more about the TIMING of the gas pulse. by adding more gas you spread the amount of gas over a larger period that allows teh steel to let go of the chamber so it can be extracted. with less gas, the pulse is recived too late or too early by the piston and thus has to do it's work while there is still pressure in the chamber, which causes the case rim failure or sticking
 
#23 ·
That still doesn't explain why it would rip a case head off instead of simply extracting it or not if it's underpowered. How is changing the size of the hole going to affect the wave front velocity?
 
G
#34 ·
I hate to go here, but just because you dont understand it, and I cant explain it to that degree... Doesn't make it not true. REAL WORLD experience has PROVEN beyond a doubt that more gas cycles wolf more reliably. It does it in AR's as well.

Just one of those things man. We can try to "logic" it all we want, but it's really hard to argue with results. :)
 
#24 ·
I wasn't going to chime in because I don't have the technical knowledge. But if you're getting cases stuck and having to pogo to extract with the gas off, it's not a gas port/block issue.

Have you conversed with Terra about this? It might be a pain to ship it back and be without it, but if it's not working anyway, what's the difference?
 
#25 ·
Could be an unpolished chamber, could be a bad bolt... I've seen numerous things cause this problem and have shot literally hundreds of them. However, MOST of the time, in my experience, it is a bad gas block/gas delivery. Why you ask? For some reason, I don't know whether it is the geometry of the barrel extension or part of the bolt head that causes the problem, but when there is not enough pressure the bolt head will get stuck in the extension and you will have to strenuously pogo it out. It is a pain in the ass and one of my biggest gripes about the weapon. I'm not shitting on the XCR, I love it, that is just one of the realities of the weapon.
When I am shooting suppressed and I switch to unsuppressed but forget to change my dial back to three or four. I'll have to find a table or rock or something to use as leverage to pogo it because I can't do it with my tricep strength alone. Like I said my gun is not the only one. I have seen it happen with virtually hundreds of XCRs. It's just a reality of the weapon. There are times when I can operate it like a bolt gun under a lower gas setting, but othertimes when there is dramatically less gas it has these issues. Everytime I had this problem, the gas block was almost always the problem once checked with a gauge pin.
He said it was getting stuck and not cycling.... if it is just plain ripping the rim off all the cartridges but still cycling everytime, sounds like that is more of an unpolished(bad) chamber/ bad bolt/ having a extractor incorrect to caliber, maybe headspace issue.... something like that.
 
#28 ·
Brandon it certainly is appreciated that you give your technical insight here.I for one appreciate the information.I think we all know the XCR has had some quality issues.I'm not knocking the design of the rifle either,I for one like the design above most if not all others.However it doesn't matter how good the ergonomics are if the rifle is not built properly.I know all manufacturers have their issues from time to time,but this seems to be a recurring theme sometimes.I honestly hope they tighten up their ship,because I would hate to see a great rifle fail due to lazy manufacturing or poor QC.
 
#30 ·
BTW, for anyone interested you can buy Meyer Gage Pins individually for about $3 per size....

http://www.meyergage.com/

but you do have to go through a distributor. I have a complete small set at work....but not for the gas block hole. .453 is bigger than my set goes.

FYI....


Sean
 
#31 ·
Allright, so I had my fingers crossed...but I couldn't stand by and have people start knocking the rifle based on it's performance with the shittiest ammo on the planet! Sure it would be nice if you could use the cheapest ammo on the planet, but if it doesn't work I don't think you start talking about the lack of quality control at Robinson. If you had a custom 1911 that wouldn't feed cheap-ass reloads but ran fine with everything else, would you blame Wilson Combat for poor quality control or blame the cheap-ass ammo? Come on people! For a long time Kel Tec warned about using steel cased ammo in their guns...I think it maybe even voided the warranty. I had it lock up two of mine that required a gunsmith to rectify. Check some AR15 blogs, you'll see this problem occurs with lots of rifles. If your gun works with Wolf you're lucky, if it doesn't you are far from alone.

Here's a question for you...has anyone ever had a factory loaded brass case that needed to be pogoed out of the rifle? Not some hot, overloaded handload but a factory brass round. I've never had it happen with any rifle I have, through thousands of rounds.

I'm guessing the tolerances of the chamber are tight, and if you reamed out the chamber your problems with Wolf would probably go away, but by creating this slop, you might be affecting the accuracy of the weapon...not sure that's a good trade off.
 
#32 ·
If everything was in spec, it would be shooting the wolf just fine. The xcr does shoot wolf. A new xcr or a barely broken in one might not like it much, but a worn in xcr should shoot it. We have noticed the 9" barrels don't seem to eat it well, and may switch to 10".

I broke my xcr in on wolf, being the starving shoemaker and all.

Either way. OP, I would like to examine your rifle. Just the upper assembly is fine.
 
#33 ·
Brandon....do you happen to know if the gas block portion that actually goes around the bbl is critical as well? I'm guessing the set screw forces the bbl port to the block's port and that the hole in the gas block for the bbl isn't as critical, but I'm not sure.

If it is, do you know what gage pin size I should order to check it. I'm trying to put an order together through work this week.

Thanks,

Sean
 
#35 ·
OK -- Follow Up Range Report:

This time I brought Fiocchi brand ammo as well as the same Remington UMC & Wolf "Performance" (black box) .223 ammo as before. I also brought along my AK which is chambered in 5.56mm to see how it handled the problematic Wolf.

RESULTS:

First I fired about 20 of the Remington UMC again... cycled fine. Changed gas setting from 4 to 3. Still cycled fine.

Second shot about 50 rounds of Fiocchi... all cycled fine. I experimented how low of a gas setting I could go. Went all the way down to gas setting 1 and it still cycled fine! Only on "S" would it not cycle, however I could just charge the handle with my support hand to extract the empty cartridge and not have to pogo the gun like with a stuck Wolf cartridge. What is odd is that no matter what gas setting the gun was on, the brass always flew about the same distance ~ 10-12 ft. (rough guess) at the 2:30 position.

Finally tried the same Wolf as before... Still jams the bolt/will not cycle the weapon, even when gas is all the way up to 4. Must pogo gun to get stuck cartridge out (though to be fair, I don't have to pogo it THAT hard). I'm guessing whatever coating is on the Wolf case melts and then re-hardens after shooting, sort of "gluing" itself to the chamber.

SO how does this Wolf that WON'T cycle the XCR work in my AK?

Works fine. Cycled my AK without any jams.

HOWEVER a shooting buddy who was also at the range noted that the Wolf ammo sounded off--that is, even though they all came from the same box, some rounds were louder/softer than others. This guy is a longtime reloader and he knows his stuff when ammo isn't loaded or performing right based on the sound of the bang.

Possible conclusions based on what I've read in this thread:

A. My XCR is out of spec somehow since it can't cycle Wolf but my AK can.

B. My XCR is normal and can't cycle Wolf black box just as most other XCRs can't since this ammo is so crappy and the XCR is real finicky about low-pressure, steel-cased ammo. It only shoots out of my AK because the AK has looser tolerances and is just a plain more reliable design.

C. ??

I have NOT tried Wolf "Military Classic" ammo, which apparently is higher-pressure/better quality than the "Performance"/black box I got and SHOULD cycle the XCR. I thought Wolf was Wolf until I saw their website and read some posts here. However the range I go to is being worked on the next few days so I will not be able to shoot for the time being.

Thoughts?

Terra, can you shoot Wolf black box ammo in your XCR or did you stick to Wolf Military Classic?

FYI my XCR is at about 700 rounds now, but I upgraded from the old to the new gas system sometime in the middle of that count. I took off the gas block yesterday and saw that there were no obstructions in the holes in either the barrel or gas block or gas dial. I have no equipment to accurately measure the size of these holes, but I could fit an end of a large paper clip through the gas block hole.
 
#39 ·
This ^ is exactly what happens in my XCRs with polymer coated Wolf Black Box. I've actually seen the melted polymer in the chamber. I've polished the chamber....still has the problem. The best thing to clean the chamber when the melted polymer is present is (IME) Hoppes No.9 and copper brush (I use a .40 cal....but a 9mm would work well).

I don't have a 5.56 AK (My dad does but he's in OK and I don't have access to the gun in AZ)....but I do have a 7.62X39 VZ-58 and I've shot polymer coated ammo exclusively through it.....it runs 100%. My LWRC in 5.56 runs the polymer Wolf Black Box with no issues either.

I agree with your friend...the Wolf is very low quality and loaded to obviously different specs from cartridge to cartridge based on the ejection strength and distance as well as the report of the rifle when it goes off. I've personally decided not to buy any more Wolf for my XCRs. That said though, I'm having issues with lacquer coated Brown Bear in my XCRs too.

I know one of my uppers has a bent op rod which is contributing to the problem....not sure about the other two.

Sean
 
#37 ·
Terra,
Did you get the email Ian forwarded to you (or the one I sent)? I need a new op rod/piston....the one I have is warped/bent and dragging in the gas tube.

Please let me know.

Thanks,
Sean King
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top