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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
XCR being an piston operated firearm, you wouldn't expect carbon build-up in your chambers. Shooting Wolf ammo may cause carbon build-up! Being that wolf cases are made of steel they don't expand in the chamber to form a good seal. This causes gas blow by in the chamber & carbon build-up. Clean your chambers after using Wolf or other steel cased ammo. http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu18.htm
 

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I shot at least 500 rounds of Wolf through my XCR during break-in and after, and it was great. I didn't have much build up anywhere, other than the red sealant around the firing pin hole in the bolt.
 

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I first heard the "steel cases don't expand" theory on the box-o-truth site, and yet to hear it anywhere else other than the internet echo chamber...

While the box-o-truth site is quite entertaining, and good in terms of "we tried this... we observed this" data, any conclusions they draw based on what they see are not proven/emperically valid. I see no reason to suspect they are qualified to come to such a conclusion about the properties of the steel in Wolf or any other ammo. There is no proof of their assertion there.

If anything, the steel in Wolf cases feels softer to me than most brass cases. Once again, that is nothing more than an observation, as are the box-o-truth web pages.

Further, I don't see how the style of gas system is going to be a significant factor in the amount of carbon build up in the chamber. You can fire a DI gun (vents behind the bolt and gas rings... if significant gas is going forward of that point, your rifle isn't running right), a piston gun, or even an HK roller locked gun (no gas system at all). All will have plenty of carbon in the chamber when you're done. When does it get there? I don't know for sure, but would suspect that it happens sometime between when the pressure in the chamber falls, and when the unlock/extraction starts... independent of any type of gas system or other method of operation.

Do steel cases become "unsealed" sooner during this operation? Someone is qualified to answer that question, but it isn't the box-o-truth guys.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I admire the guys on The Box O' Truth for there observations & letting use know what they have found. Weather this phenomnon is true or not, it's up to you to believe or not. The Wolf steel cases not expanding came from a noted expert on AR-15.COM. Named Troy, not The Box O' Truth guys.
 

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Steel cases do expand, but they're not as elastic as brass. In other words, they expand less than brass, then tend to stay that way. They only contract very slightly after firing compared to brass.

I don't have any real problem with using steel cases. I suspect they might increase wear on the gun somewhat. This wouldn't particularly concern me with the XCR, it being as user serviceable as it is.

This also brings an interesting recent range incident to mind. A friend of mine has some steel cased 9mmP ammo he was trying to run through a Springfield XD. Needless to say, in less than one magazine he had a case stuck in the chamber that we could not get out at the range. I had the only other 9mm there that day; an HK P7M8. I passed it around and it gobbled up the rest of this stuff without incident. I think I may have sold a couple of P7s for someone that day. Our resident class 3 maven was mightily impressed.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Do you think that the chamber in the DX might be tighter than the P7? With the steel case expanding & not spring back in the chamber of the DX making extraction difficult. Did the slide cycle? Did the extractor rip the case rim?
 

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If you don't clean your rifle, which includes the chamber every time, I SAY AGAIN, every time you use it, you deserve to have buildup.

This religious need to avoid cleaning weapons is insane. I have seen men die because their weapon wasn't clean. It wasn't just once and it wasn't just the M16 either.

I will give you an iron clad guarantee. Don't clean your weapon and sooner or later it will fail you. That is an absolute.

I love the pistol folks. They believe that if their chosen pistol jams in less than 1000 rounds, it is sensitive.

I have been in a bunch of fire fights. Even with a rifle I don't think I ever went past about 250 rounds. Not a battle, a single firefight. In a pistol, if you unload more than 3 to 5 magazines in a fight, you need more than a Pistol. After every fire fight I was in, after taking care of business (which included reloading our used up magazines with what ammunition we had in bandoleers we were carrying, or were resupplied with.) We cleaned our weapons, then we ate, or what ever.

Often we dug in, and before going to sleep or eating we cleaned our weapons. For civilians the excuses I hear the most are. I am testing my weapon to see how dirty it can get, BS! or I was so tired I had to go to sleep. Clean the weapon then sleep, not after.

CLEAN THE WEAPON.

I have heard all the criticisms about "OVER CLEANING". No such thing. If you are cleaning your weapon appropriately it will not be damaged, but it will be clean.

I don't know of any fighting professional in any agency/organization in the world, that heads into a potential action with a dirty weapon. Only a fool would.

CLEAN THAT WEAPON, EVERY TIME YOU USE IT. No exception, no excuses.

You don't eat or sleep until your weapon is clean.

Besides combat experience, I am a Former D.I. I don't consider the cleaning of fighting weapons a small thing. Today, weapons like my XCR, SIG's, Glocks, HK's etc... even my 1911's accept more dirt/fouling than they used to. Doesn't change a thing.

Clean them properly after each use. Don't forget to clean them if you haven't used them for awhile either.

By the way, I was asked to leave the Drill field for suggesting rather strenuously to a young recruit that his rifle wasn't quite clean enough. That recruit kept his rifle clean after that Come to Jesus conversation and conversion.

Go figure.

Fred
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I'm with you Fred. I'm a clean nut, if I shoot it, I clean it no mater if I put 1 round through it. Just brought up that way.
 

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The P7 has a fluted chamber. It probably is looser than the XD and the gas cushion the flutes provide probably helps as well. P7s are known for being able to "extract" and eject even without an extractor. They literally blow the case out of the chamber. They're also known for very vigorous ejection.

I wasn't watching the XD when it choked. When I saw the gun, the owner already had the slide locked back and was looking for a cleaning rod, heh. It did look like the extractor jumped the case rim. It didn't pull through. The case was wedged in VERY tightly. We couldn't get it out at the range with some field expediant implements. I'm assuming he got it out after he got home. I'll ask him next time I see him. It was a shorty XD, if that matters.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Excuse my ignorance, but what is a fluted chamber? I'm assuming he pulled the slide back if the case was still in the chamber?
 

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I'm assuming he popped the extractor over the rim to retract the slide. I didn't see the actual malfunction, just the aftermath. The case was well and truly stuck in the chamber. It wasn't coming out without a rod and possibly some brass hammer action.

Fluted chambers are just that. A chamber with flutes cut into the walls. Think fluted barrel in reverse. I really need to get my camera software loaded back up on this machine. Lemme find a P7 and I'll do the quick and dirty description...my M13 is handy, so it's the guinea pig.

The flutes in a P7 chamber are 17 grooves that run from the lip the case headspaces on back about 3/4 of the way to the casehead end of the chamber. There is no 6 o'clock groove where the gas port is. The rest are evenly spaced around the circumference of the chamber. HK rifles, well, G3 rifles and their variants have a similar setup. Basically, it leaks gas back into the chamber to float the case off the walls and help it extract. It also bleeds gas into a cylinder to force a piston to hold the slide closed until the bullet leaves the barrel. Hence, gas-delayed blowback.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Thanks Sloan, I get the pitcher, its amazing how engineers make better mouse traps & your description was well done & appreciated.
 

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txsolf, here's an ejected case from my ptr91 to illustrate the fluting in the chamber. as you can from the black marks, the gas goes around the case which helps with the turbocharged ejection hk style rifles are known for...

 

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Flip the case over so he can see the signiture HK dent.

G3s are really rough on brass.

P7s are somewhat less so. But once a case has run through a P7, it's marked forever (or until lost, which is usually pretty quickly, considering P7 ejection habits). The striations never completely go away, no matter how much you tumble and polish.
 

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The fluted allow chamber pressure to drop to a safe level prior to unlocking. Yes it messes up brass but without them the rolerlocking would be dangerous.
 

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So I think what Chieftain is saying is To Clean ya damned Weapons !! ;D

I agree WTF does "I wanna see how dirty I can get my gun until it fails" mean?.The same guys brag about this like it's some kind of benchmark to prove how reliable the gun is. :duh:

Good Info in this thread ...

BTW . when my XCR's are set on 4 they crimp the brass to hell.. but I suspect that's not news to this crowd.

T
 

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My XCR actually likes the Wolf, although I favor my reloads. Whatever I shoot I make it a point to clean after use. If it's been in my gunsafe a long while, without use, I clean it before going to the range. Cleaned and lubed, it gives ME more confidence in the long run. Like my old Drill Sgt used to say... "If you use it, don't abuse it, scrub hell out of IT before puttin' it away." :2cents:
 

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Interesting...

A friend of mine has some steel cased 9mmP ammo he was trying to run through a Springfield XD. Needless to say, in less than one magazine he had a case stuck in the chamber that we could not get out at the range.
I have had TWO major issues with Wolf steel cased ammo. The first was in my RRA Entry Tactical. I fired at least 700 rounds of Wolf through it without incident (in one range visit)... BUT - MY FAILURE TO CLEAN the chamber fully, resulted on a stuck case / FTE at the next range visit. This case was stuck so bad, I literally had to beat it out with a hammer and cleaning rod (yup - I sacrificed the rod). I will note that a case extractor would not budge it. This was clearly MY FAULT for lack of proper cleaning, and I have been anal about it ever since. Having taken this approach - I have had ZERO problems since that time, and can use Wolf (.223) ammo all day without incident.

HOWEVER - my HK USP40 (full size) DOES NOT FUNCTION with Wolf steel cased ammo. At LEAST 90% of the cases fired will have splits up the side, and out of EVERY magazine - at least ONE (spent case) will be stuck in the chamber so badly that I have to use a wooden dowel to knock it out as well. I have had this happen on FOUR separate occasions. Let me qualify this by stating that the USP40 chamber is spotless clean - and that I have tried virtually every other brand of ammo made - and have not had a SINGLE FTF/FTE or stuck case with anything else.

I will note further for the record that my USP45 does not have issues with Wolf steel cased ammo, and I have had no problems with Wolf (.40 SW) in SIG, Walther, Glock or S&W autos.

I hope I didn't deviate much from the subject line, but hope that this info may help someone else.

:2cents:
 
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