[i303]

I'm no doomsday prophet. I'm not into the 'survivalists' scene, howver I don't see anything wrong with people doing so. But I'm no fool either. For those who choose to ignore the obvious and blast those who just can't help to notice I've found this little piece in the Washinton Post. I'm sure few have read it. More continue to ignore it.

Simply put, humans will continue to repeat history. While we Americans worry about our lap dogs, whether a couple of ****'s can marry, our credit report being more important than life itself, someone else have other plans.

Why does China need a more bigger 'defense' budget? Unless it will be "We had to hit them first b/c they were going to attack" 'defense'.

I generally don't trust media sources, but sometimes they manage to at least hit the paper near the target. And it doesn't tell me anything I already don't know.


http://www.washingtontimes.com/article/20080221/NATION/967794878/1002

China arms buildup 'alarming'
By Sara A. Carter
February 21, 2008
China is using billions of American trade dollars to modernize its military force — from purchasing foreign weapons systems and technologies to building its own ships, planes and missiles — a top lawmaker and his colleagues say.

As top U.S. military officials questioned China's intentions in expanding its military last week, ranking House Armed Services Committee member Rep. Duncan Hunter, California Republican, said the reality is that "China is stepping into the superpower shoes left behind by the former Soviet Union."

"China is increasing its production and acquisition of military technology at an alarming rate, and they are doing it with American trade dollars," he added.

Rep. Tim Ryan, Ohio Democrat, who is writing a trade-reform bill with Mr. Hunter, cited the U.S. record deficit with China as further evidence that action is needed on countries that unfairly manipulate their currencies.

China's economic growth has enabled it to sustain a trend of double-digit increases in defense spending. In March 2007, China also announced it would increase its annual defense budget by nearly 18 percent over the previous year to billion.

Military officials said this figure is a low estimate of China's overall defense spending. A recent Department of Defense annual report, "The Military Power of the People's Republic of China," estimated that China's total military-related defense spending is more likely in the range of billion to 5 billion.

China received the second of two Russian-made Sovremenny II guided-missile destroyers fitted with anti-ship cruise missiles in late 2006 — providing China with a capability to challenge American aircraft carriers.

The report states that the Chinese government is also negotiating with the Russians on submarines, such as the Kilo-class diesel submarine; a battalion of S-300PMU-2 surface-to-air missile systems with an intercept range of about 125 miles; AWACS aircraft with air-to-air refueling capability; sophisticated communications equipment among other aircraft and defense systems.

Last week, Adm. Timothy Keating, commander of the U.S. forces in Asia, told Chinese officials during a visit to explain the intentions behind their expanding military power, adding that "transparency" is not enough.

Adm. Gary Roughead, the former Pacific Fleet commander, echoed Adm. Keating's concerns, telling reporters that as China's navy is becoming increasingly stronger, the Asian nation's "intent" becomes more imperative.

The loss of American manufacturing jobs, however, only heightens the issue, said Mr. Ryan, citing the 6 billion annual trade deficit on goods with China.

"Our economy is at risk of recession, we continue to lose manufacturing jobs and we need to have the courage to do something real about it," he said.

To predict that a WW3 is going to happen is like predicting that the sun will rise from the east tomorrow morning. It's human nature and population control.

And I know America is more concerned with Britney pantiless crotch show for the paparazzi in Hollywood than they are about this.

 

[EricCartmann]

For the most part China does not want war. If they did they would have took Hong Kong by force and took Taiwan a long time ago. Also when was the last time you saw China expand like the way Germany did in WWII? Also they have a aging population and the younger generation has a lot more males then females.

In 50 years China will no doubt be a world power and their standard of living will go up and ours will go down. All part of life....

 

[MickeyC]

I suspect that by 2050 we will have had a world war over natural resources. The only way to avert this is to reduce dependancy and waste. Unfortunately we are ALL too lazy to do it in time.

 

[ny32182]

I'm trying to imagine what aspect of military power China could build that would be superior to ours, and I'm not coming up with anything... they are little late to the party. The Cold War already happened. We won.

IMO, China wants a big military so they can be taken seriously as a world superpower. I don't see them rolling through the Pacific and bombing Pearl Harbor any time soon.

 

[SigsRule]

I suspect that by 2050 we will have had a world war over natural resources. The only way to avert this is to reduce dependancy and waste. Unfortunately we are ALL too lazy to do it in time.

We already have a world war in progress. It's between radical Islamic fundamentalists and everybody else. It's just a matter of time till it escalates.

 

[MickeyC]

Not really. Wahabi islamists want to wipe out everybody who isn't wahabi. shie Iran wants a persian state that controls Iran, Iraq and Saudi. The problem with islam is that it's the fastest growing religion anyware and only Turkey is truely secular. America would not be a target if it butted out of their regional politics, but the US can't afford to. Domsetic oil production peaked more then two decades ago.

Global resources will cause the next war. Religion might cause terrorism and regional conflicts but a true global war, that will be for oil, food and possibly even water.

 

[Bravo]

Technically, Mickey, the islamists have to offer us (Christians and Jews) dhimmitude. Not just wipe us out. If we accept dhimmitude (being a dhimmi) then we're supposed to be allowed safe living as a sub-culture. A 'not as good' culture, made up of sub-citizens.

Which is fine with me. The way I look at it, whoever is offering dhimmitude has created quite the target designator for himself, eh?

 

[MickeyC]

That's a very strict interpretation and not stricktly true. In actual fact Mohammed wrote that christians and Jews are not to be attacked as we follow the same God. The Wahabi and Shia have an extreme view, Wahabi more so than Shia. Regular Sunni islam couldn't give a shit about us, but they have a far purer faith structure. Funnily enough they are the ones western governments are friendly with. sunni tend to take the Quran as written, whereas Wahabbi and Shia tend to interperet and hence issues and problems arise.

By the way, I was born in Bahrain and lived in the middle east for seven years. My godfather happens to be a Leutenant General in the Dubai police force and my other 'uncle' built the superstructure for the Burj al Arab hotel....and yes both are Sunni muslims and damn fine gentlemen.

 

[i303]

I suspect that by 2050 we will have had a world war over natural resources. The only way to avert this is to reduce dependancy and waste. Unfortunately we are ALL too lazy to do it in time.

For those nay sayers that say China doesn't want a war, MickeyC hit it pretty much in the head.

It isn't about taking land but competition for resources, specifically oil. US is the richest country and we pay the best price and we drive up prices. We can afford it. If we were 'taken out' then things wouldn't be so expensive for an expanding country with a humongous population and with a super power military that will also need what is available. Colonialism isn't why modern warfare is waged for anymore. Globalism is. And when you are a strong and hungry country, selling shit to Americans won't be a priority. You'd be amazed what a person is capable of and will do when they want something bad enough.

Did we really win the cold war? Last time I checked we have troops stationed on the DMZ in that country which had that one war, kinda forgot the name of it. Started with a K and happened in the 50's......apparently so did every one else. And ask those vets what do they think the Chinese are capable of in warfare.

And don't forget, World War ONE wasn't called World War ONE until another great war came along. Can you imagine explaining to anyone in France in 1913 that in the next 31 years they will be in the midst of the 2 largest wars in history. France considered to be such a progressive country with a high standard of living at the time. To think we won't see one again is foolish and not one of the wars last century was neither predicted or expected but every one had one thing in common, one country massing and modernizing it's military. Being trade partners, if you want to call it that, with China won't mean squat when they want to find an excuse to light it up on us.

And yes, while we piddle away in the middle east, which gives China an excellent idea of what we have on the ground, they are sure as shit preparing. Rest assure they'll make their move on Taiwan, heck might as well go for a few other key locations. All they really have to do is supercede our military and cripple us economically. China can handle a few nuke strikes, maybe a dozen or so. And they know it. Can you imagine how'd we handle ONE? And ONE nuked US city will be enough to cripple us economically.

Rest assure there will be a global war. It won't be the end of the world nor of the US. I don't lay awake at night thinking about it or stockpiling food for doomsday or anything like that. I don't beleive it will be some 42 years ahead of us. I'd say a lot less. I'd say within the next 10 to 15 years. Time is on the side of anyone planning an attack and why not wait to see who will be driving this boat in Nov '08. And boycotting Chinese goods? Good luck. Make sure you start with the computer you have in front of you, then your cell, TV, most of your clothes, half your furniture, and so on.

 

[Bravo]

Ah!

Well, growing up you must have gotten more in-depth than I have from reading and a few discussions.

There was one character I talked with significantly - he was from the UAE - from which I formed many of my opinions. Guess maybe that wasn't quite as universal as what it could have been (GRIN) I certainly defer.

In any case, my sentiment stands. Anyone that attempts to dictate that we -citizens or residents here in this country- can choose to die or live as sub-citizens is asking for Dr. Bravo's perscription - one high velocity cranial lead injection.

 

[aziator]

I Will boycott China by only buying guns made in the US ;D :2cents:

I fully believe that the Chinese are simply waiting for their moment to strike. They are a patient people, they can wait as long as necessary. It is only logical in the world we live in that somebody comes around and challenges the big kid on the block. I am not a "survivalist" or fanatic by any means but I do think that this counrty will be thrown into a conflict that we wont easily overcome. The one thing they have going for them is solid numbers of troops...they have a billion people over there. Let em come, Maybe I will move to Montana and live the quiet life ;D

 

[i303]

I'm trying to imagine what aspect of military power China could build that would be superior to ours, and I'm not coming up with anything... they are little late to the party. The Cold War already happened. We won.

IMO, China wants a big military so they can be taken seriously as a world superpower. I don't see them rolling through the Pacific and bombing Pearl Harbor any time soon.

I apologize if you think I'm picking on you bro, but I hope to merely enlighten:

Wiki has it's useful purposes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People's_Liberation_Army

"The PLA is one of the world's largest military forces, with approximately 7,000,000 members (see List of countries by number of total troops), and has the world's largest (active) standing army, with approximately 2.3 million members"

Yeah, THAT party is over. There will be other parties. And I wouldn't expect them to set foot on US soil. They won't have to and i don't expect that is what they initially want.

Never, and I mean never, underestimate your enemy or potential enemy. Ever watch "Locked Up" on MSNBC. Some of the most vicious men in prison are the meekest looking, skinniest, coke-bottle-bottom-glasses wearing, big eared, felons.

 

[EricCartmann]

this thread has a lot of great insight without personal attacks. kind of weird for a public forum most of the time i get people who want to personally attack ericcartmann without attacking the topic at hand ;D

i agree 100% with everything micky says. eventually when china will need more resources they will be going to war for it. but as for now they don't want war.

...and trust me, a lot can change in 50 years. Britain, France, and Germany (1900's-1940's) went from World Power to barely mid-pack. Greece fell apart after Alexander died, and Rome fell apart after Constantine died.

 

[i303]

this thread has a lot of great insight without personal attacks. kind of weird for a public forum most of the time i get people who want to personally attack ericcartmann without attacking the topic at hand ;D

i agree 100% with everything micky says. eventually when china will need more resources they will be going to war for it. but as for now they don't want war.

...and trust me, a lot can change in 50 years. Britain, France, and Germany (1900's-1940's) went from World Power to barely mid-pack. Greece fell apart after Alexander died, and Rome fell apart after Constantine died.

You mean like those 14 year old airsofters, and 42 year old used car salesman who still lives in their mom's basement at AR15.com do all the time? Then rag on you for only having 287 posts in 2 years while they have 18,497 post count in the same time frame? Although 18,452 post only consist of "+1's", "tag", and "IBTL" accompanied with some stupid GIF smiley doing something. As if high post count actually relates to real life experiences.

BTW MickeyC, I used to live in Abqaiq, Saudi Arabia, ARAMCO brat from 77 to 80. That and other parts of the world.

 

[V]

The US is already at war with China albeit an economic one.
I don't buy sh-- from china.
I don't' shop at walmart. If you do, stop now!
I've avoided chinese made products for over 20 years and I'm glad I did. I just wish more of us had.
When china started taking all of our scrap metal, why didn't anybody stop them, why didn't anyone else
see this coming. I did and there was nothing I could about it, maybe nobody could. The deals were made
by those short sighted, greedy politicians. They made it easy for them to bleed us dry.

But DC needs china to maintain the illusion of our prosperity. To keep the inflation numbers down.
To keep the citizens placated, docile, fat and lazy.
Just ask yourself, do you really need a $50 DVD player, a new plastic toy for the kids, crap from sharper image.
The simple answer is no.
So why do so many have to purchase future landfill items, almost all of which are made in china? To make us
happy? Or to make us forget?

Is it to late? Probably. Can we fight back? YES!
Before you buy anything look at the label, if it says made in china put it down and ask yourself, are your US Dollars
better in pocket or in china. We have a choice. We the people have the final say on who we give our money to.
Spread the word.
Thank you.

 

[MickeyC]

China can mobilize, including tertiary reserves and adults in the required age range for service, over 200 million men. We don"t have that much ammunition.

We can't use nukes, because they will retaliate....with nukes. Our missile defence can't stop 2000 warheads.

China doesn't want a war. They have decided to win the battle with economic power so they aren't likely to attack us anytime soon. But don't underestimate your enemy. Iraq hasn't been a walk over, and no offence to the vets who got sold out by their country, but neither was Vietnam. Hell the British, my people, spent 38 years in Northern Ireland. Never assume superiority just because of technology or might. Hannibal fucked the Romans with elephants!

The Middle East loves China because the Chinese buy their oil and stay out of Middle-Eastern politics. We should do the same. Iran had a democratic gobernment, the US toppled them and inserted the Sha who was a US controlled puppet by provided access to Iranian oil. The Sha was an evil bastard and so the people reacted....result modern Iran! Whoopsie! In Iraq, Sadam Hussain was a sunni barrier to the Iranian Shia islamic states attempts at expansion. Saddam was toppled and repalced buy a Shia government that is friendly with Iran. whoopsie!

At some point there will be another major conflict. China is seeking world domination with it's economy and unless we stop offshoring and seeking the last cent of profit in short term gains we will sell our souls to China. They are building a Navy to rival the US so they too can assert their dominance. At some point we will butt heads.

If you want to fight it the US economy needs to grow, the best way to do that is to increase the pool of US consumers and thus tax payers. Have babies and open immigration. That is what allowed this country to grow so rappidly in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. What screwed european countries was the lazy attitudes that emerged with the growth of the welfare states. The UK got a boost when it opened the borders to immigration in the 50s as many new workers came in to boost the post war recession based economy. Without that we wouldn't be a G8 member. The Us has the potential to remain a world leader is business heads stop sellig out for a quick profit and if it focusses on domestic growth. all great nations have fallen but if we learn from the past and put our arrogant opinions to one side the US can continue to be the leader for many more years.

 

[EricCartmann]

The Middle East loves China because the Chinese buy their oil and stay out of Middle-Eastern politics. We should do the same. Iran had a democratic gobernment, the US toppled them and inserted the Sha who was a US controlled puppet by provided access to Iranian oil. The Sha was an evil bastard and so the people reacted....result modern Iran! Whoopsie! In Iraq, Sadam Hussain was a sunni barrier to the Iranian Shia islamic states attempts at expansion. Saddam was toppled and repalced buy a Shia government that is friendly with Iran. whoopsie!

Every country has dirty laundry and personal agenda's. They all get involved in the affairs of others and they all at one time another made a mistake or 2. The difference with the USA is because it is #1 so it is more noticable when America acts, reacts, or make mistakes.

Also you forgot about Vietnam too! That was the biggest oopsie of all time! :duh:
- Ho helps USA in fighting the Japanese during WWII.
- Ho was more of a nationalist than a communist. Ho looked up to the USA, even used passages of the American Declaration of independence in his own speeches.
- After serving for the USA valiently
- Ho goes to USA to ask for American assitance for Vietnamese independence from France.
- USA totally ignores Ho.
- Fance goes back in Vietnam after WWII to reclaim it as a French Colony.
- France gets their asses kicked out of Vietnam.
- Vietnam gets split into 2 countries with Ho in charge of the north and a pro American Gov't in the south. America puts a good ole Catholic boy Diem in charge of South Vietnam.
- Diem was inept and corrupt. USA (via CIA) eventually had Diem murdered and backs up another inept guy.
- In 1972 USA normalized relations with China then totally pull out of Vietnam leaving South Vietnam to fend for themselves without assitance.
- In 1975 the North takes the South ending the war. Millions of life lost.

 

[EricCartmann]

If you want to fight it the US economy needs to grow, the best way to do that is to increase the pool of US consumers and thus tax payers. Have babies and open immigration. That is what allowed this country to grow so rappidly in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. What screwed european countries was the lazy attitudes that emerged with the growth of the welfare states. The UK got a boost when it opened the borders to immigration in the 50s as many new workers came in to boost the post war recession based economy. Without that we wouldn't be a G8 member. The Us has the potential to remain a world leader is business heads stop sellig out for a quick profit and if it focusses on domestic growth. all great nations have fallen but if we learn from the past and put our arrogant opinions to one side the US can continue to be the leader for many more years.

You hit the nail on the head on that one. We need more citizens! And we need more workers! If everyone sits back and complain about illegal immigration while sitting on their asses collecting SS, we will not be much of a country for long.

 

[MickeyC]

I'm all for legal immigrtion. I'm in the process now.

My plan would be to provide some way of allowing illegals who are paying taxes to become legal and to increase the Ethnic diversity Lottery to 2M per year for the next ten or fifteen years. That would allow an increase in consumers of up to 60 million tax payers and even more consumers as their families grow and contribute. That would generate a massive boost to the economy and would last at least 50 years.

This combined with waste reduction and alternative energy consumption would provide a good long term boost.

 

[V]

Guy's, we don't really need more citizens, we need to make the citizens that
are already here, better.

Now there's a challenge.